I was a guest on the Life Done Differently podcast with Neil Witten. I know him because he acquired Sheet2Site from my friend Andrey. I really enjoyed being on their podcast as it went way beyond the standard startup questions and delved more into life and philosophy of why we do what we do. I hope you enjoy it!
我是尼尔维滕的《生活的终结》播客的嘉宾。我认识他是因为他从我的朋友Andrey那里收购了Sheet 2Site。我真的很喜欢参加他们的播客，因为它超越了标准的创业问题，更深入地探讨了我们为什么要做我们所做的事情的生活和哲学。希望你喜欢！
Here’s the transcript: 以下是文字记录：
Neil Witten (00:00:08): 尼尔维滕（00：00：08）：
Hello, welcome to The Life Done Differently podcast with me, Neil Witten and my co-host Ray Richards. Join us on our journey to find out what separates the doers from the thinkers.
大家好，欢迎来到《生命终结》播客，我是尼尔维滕，还有我的搭档雷理查兹。让我们一起来看看，究竟是什么让我们的思想家们变得与众不同。
Ray Richards (00:00:20): 雷理查兹（00：00：20）：
Hello, and welcome to our conversation with Pieter Levels. Pieter is the man behind nomadlist.com, remoteok.com, inflationchart.com, rebase.co, and much more. Pieter, is hard to describe if you’re after an old world description. He’s most certainly a business guy and a software developer guy, but he works remotely. Sometimes he charges for his creations, sometimes he doesn’t. He does his best to, in his own words, practice radical honesty with himself and others. He’s unafraid to experiment, to play and learn as a student that doing something different can have unexpected and very rewarding consequences. He works with a few trusted friends, but creatively he’s the man. Neil has been telling me for six months that a conversation with Pieter will be fun and interesting. He was right. Pieter is in charge of himself. He’s not going with the flow unless it serves him. He’s not short of money, but he doesn’t own a home and his laptop seems to be as extravagant as it gets.
大家好，欢迎来到我们与Pieter Levels的对话。Pieter是nomadlist.com、remoteok.com、inflationchart.com、rebase.co等网站的幕后黑手。彼得，很难描述，如果你在一个旧世界的描述。他当然是一个商人和软件开发人员，但他远程工作。有时他会为他的作品收费，有时他不会。用他自己的话说，他尽最大努力对自己和他人实行彻底的诚实。作为一名学生，他不怕尝试、玩耍和学习，做一些不同的事情会产生意想不到的、非常有益的结果。他和几个值得信赖的朋友一起工作，但他是个有创造力的人。尼尔六个月来一直告诉我，和彼得的谈话会很有趣。他是对的彼得自己负责。他不会随大流除非这对他有利。他不缺钱，但他没有自己的家，他的笔记本电脑似乎是奢侈的，因为它得到。
Ray Richards (00:01:29): 雷理查兹（00：01：29）：
He keeps things simple. For someone so successfully immersed in the world of digital, he has a level of self-awareness that ensures he spends time IRLing. For the uninitiated, as I was before this conversation, IRL stands for In Real Life. That means no screens just doing stuff out there in the real world. Amen to that. Pieter seems to be on a quest to find the joy in life, but fully understand that what brings joy today may not be what brings joy tomorrow. It’s all an adventure. Enjoy Pieter Levels thinking and doing for yourself.
他把事情简单化了。对于一个如此成功地沉浸在数字世界中的人来说，他有一定程度的自我意识，可以确保他花时间进行IRLing。对于门外汉来说，就像我在这次谈话之前一样，IRL代表真实的生活。这意味着没有屏幕只是在真实的世界里做事情。阿门彼得似乎在寻找生活中的快乐，但他完全明白，今天带来快乐的可能不是明天带来快乐的。一切都是冒险。享受Pieter Levels为自己思考和做事的乐趣。
Pieter Levels (00:02:16):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Okay, Perfect man. 好吧，完美男人。
Neil Witten (00:02:18): 尼尔维滕（00：02：18）：
Cool. 酷了
Pieter Levels (00:02:19):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Nice to see you guys. Nice
很高兴见到你们好
Ray Richards (00:02:20): 雷理查兹（00：02：20）：
Nice to see you. 高兴见到你
Neil Witten (00:02:21): 尼尔维滕（00：02：21）：
How are you? 你好吗？
Pieter Levels (00:02:23):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Really good. I just woke up so I’m having my coffee, so if my brain doesn’t work yet, that’s why.
非常好我刚起床，所以我有我的咖啡，所以如果我的大脑还没有工作，这就是为什么。
Neil Witten (00:02:30): 尼尔维滕（00：02：30）：
That’s all right. 没关系.
Ray Richards (00:02:30): 雷理查兹（00：02：30）：
I’ve been awake for a couple of hours and my brain isn’t working.
我已经醒了几个小时了，我的大脑不工作。
Pieter Levels (00:02:34):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, it happens. It happens.
是啊，常有的事。它发生.
Neil Witten (00:02:37): 尼尔维滕（00：02：37）：
Pieter, what time zone are you on?
彼得，你在哪个时区？
Pieter Levels (00:02:41):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
This is Thailand time, so I think it’s called in indoor China time, but usually I wake up noon or something. Today’s late because yesterday we were late drinking mock tills in the [inaudible 00:02:52] bar, no alcohol, but still. Usually I wake up around noon or 1:00 PM or 2:00 PM or something.
这是泰国时间，所以我认为这是所谓的室内中国时间，但通常我醒来中午或什么。今天晚了，因为昨天我们在酒吧喝了一杯酒，没有酒，但仍然迟到了。通常我在中午或下午1点或2点左右醒来。
Neil Witten (00:02:59): 尼尔维滕（00：02：59）：
Let’s start here because it’s really intriguing. Because you travel a lot, do you move into time zones of different countries or do you try and stay in a Pieter time zone?
让我们从这里开始，因为它真的很有趣。因为你经常旅行，你会搬到不同国家的时区，还是试着呆在皮特的时区？
Pieter Levels (00:03:12):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yes, so the myth is that I travel a lot. I don’t travel a lot. I’m a very slowmad, so I-
是的，流言就是我经常旅行。我不经常旅行。我是个慢性子，所以我-
Neil Witten (00:03:18): 尼尔维滕（00：03：18）：
Slowmad. Love that. 慢疯。喜欢的
Pieter Levels (00:03:20):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
When I started nomading 2014, I did travel a lot. I was, every, sorry, I put the microphone a little bit closer. When I started in 2014, I did travel a lot. I was, I think every few months, maybe in every month in a different place and before that I was backpacking. Backpacking, only have one month to see 12, well that’s too much. It’s five countries, so you’re going really fast from city to city. I think that it burns you out after a while because essentially you do the same thing in every city anyway. You sleep, you wake up, you have coffee, you meet people, you work a little bit, you see the city a little bit, you do things, but it starts getting the same in every city after a few years.
2014年我开始流浪的时候，我确实旅行了很多。我是，每一个，对不起，我把麦克风靠近一点。从2014年开始，我经常旅行。我是，我想每隔几个月，也许每个月在一个不同的地方，在此之前，我是背包客。背包旅行，只有一个月的时间去看12个，太多了。这是五个国家，所以你从一个城市到另一个城市的速度非常快。我认为这会让你在一段时间后筋疲力尽，因为本质上你在每个城市都做同样的事情。你睡觉，你醒来，你喝咖啡，你见人，你工作一点，你看城市一点，你做事情，但几年后，每个城市都开始变得一样。
Neil Witten (00:04:10): 尼尔维滕（00：04：10）：
I’ve noticed that for some reason you try and find tall things to climb up when you go to new cities. Why do we do that?
我注意到，出于某种原因，当你去新的城市时，你会试图找到更高的东西来爬。我们为什么要这么做？
Pieter Levels (00:04:20):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
What do you mean tall things? What do you mean?
什么叫高个子？你说什么？
Neil Witten (00:04:22): 尼尔维滕（00：04：22）：
So you find tall skyscrapers, tall churches, tall buildings, tall hills.
所以你可以看到高高的摩天大楼，高高的教堂，高高的建筑物，高高的山丘。
Ray Richards (00:04:29): 雷理查兹（00：04：29）：
I think it’s just you, Neil. That might be just you.
我觉得只有你，尼尔。可能只有你这么想。
Neil Witten (00:04:31): 尼尔维滕（00：04：31）：
Me, maybe it’s me. 我，也许是我。
Pieter Levels (00:04:32):
I think it’s just Neil. It is awesome. This is fake news.
Ray Richards (00:04:36):
Well that’s much actually big fair. In Brighton we have the i360, which is the tallest thing in Brighton and that is the tourist destination. So maybe you’re right.
Neil Witten (00:04:44):
Yeah, I’m sure.
Pieter Levels (00:04:44):
Yeah, same in Amsterdam. Man, it’s always funny if this is not rude against all the UK and Europeans, but if you look how tall everything is in Asia and then I go to Amsterdam and they’re like… The main tourist attraction is a building. I think it’s the Amsterdam Tower. Let’s see the height. It’s 80 meters, 80 meters.
Neil Witten (00:05:10):
That’s massive or the Netherlands though. There’s nothing too apart, apart from the people. The people are the tallest thing in the world.
Pieter Levels (00:05:17):
No, no. The people are taller in that building. That’s the problem. You don’t fit in. But things are really tall in Asia. Generally, I like ground level because I grew up in a ground level. We all do in UK and Holland. I think we grew up usually grew up in ground level houses and it feels nice, but I don’t really care. I like ground level also, but in Asia, the higher, the more status is. It’s really very metaphorical.
Ray Richards (00:05:45): 雷理查兹（00：05：45）：
Oh, interesting. Yeah. 哦，有意思。是啊
Pieter Levels (00:05:48):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I grew up where my parents were… They didn’t like flats, we’d call them. Maybe UK same, flats. They said it’s good to have your own house on the ground and I was like, “Okay”, but in Asia they want the top floors and that’s status and stuff and I’m like, “Whoa, but you’re stuck in this building so high. How do you get out?” I don’t know.
我在我父母的地方长大…他们不喜欢平底鞋，我们叫他们。也许英国一样，单位。他们说在地面上有自己的房子很好，我说，“好吧”，但在亚洲，他们想要顶层，那是地位和东西，我说，“哇，但你被困在这座大楼这么高。你怎么出去？“我也不知道。
Neil Witten (00:06:11): 尼尔维滕（00：06：11）：
Sure. We’re going to pick up on a few more of these kinds of things. I think as you experience and live amongst other cultures, you start to recognize those things that make a lot of sense because they’re everything we’ve ever known. Suddenly you go to another culture and it makes no sense anymore because it’s the opposite. I wonder how much that might, if you’ve traveled a lot, how much that starts to change your mind, your perspective on the world.
当然.我们将学习更多类似的东西。我认为当你经历和生活在其他文化中时，你开始认识到这些事情很有意义，因为它们是我们所知道的一切。突然间，你进入了另一种文化，这就没有意义了，因为它是相反的。我想知道，如果你经常旅行，这会在多大程度上改变你的想法，你对世界的看法。
Pieter Levels (00:06:41):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, I think it’s a really good question. It’s so interesting. It’s a really a psychological journey too if you’re always abroad a lot and you’re nomading and stuff and you’re not in your home country, not even in the west. I was really depressed and really anxious. You go through these years of feeling lost and what are you doing with your life and where are you because you don’t have a geographical tie to your home country anymore where you grew up and stuff. For me it was like I lived in Amsterdam a lot of my life and it was my last city in Holland. It’s psychologically really wrecking and transformative and destructive in a way because you rebuild as a person. I read on Hacker News, back in the day a few years ago, there was a lot of nomads who go suicidal. A lot of them would go depressed. Removing the ties from your home to then just go anywhere is very dangerous and it can be very intense emotionally, psychologically. Now I feel good and I think the reason for that is that nowadays I always travel with friends. We’re always in a group and I make sure I’m never alone anymore. You need friends, you need a girlfriend or boyfriend or something. You need a partner, you need stuff to. So your identity I think comes from contextualizing your environment and stuff from the context of how do you fit in an environment. If the environment is constantly influx, you don’t know. You only talk to strangers. You don’t really exist anymore as a person.
是啊，我觉得这是个好问题。太有意思了这也是一次真正的心理旅行，如果你经常在国外，你在流浪，你不在你的祖国，甚至不在西方。我真的很沮丧，真的很焦虑。你经历了这些年的失落感，你在做什么与你的生活，你在哪里，因为你没有一个地理上的联系，你的祖国了，你长大的东西。对我来说，这就像我在阿姆斯特丹生活了很长时间，这是我在荷兰的最后一个城市。从心理上讲，这真的是破坏性的，变革性的，破坏性的，因为你重建了一个人。我在黑客新闻上读到，几年前，有很多游牧民族自杀。他们中的许多人会感到沮丧。从你的家里删除的关系，然后去任何地方是非常危险的，它可以是非常激烈的情绪，心理上。 现在我感觉很好，我想原因是现在我总是和朋友一起旅行。我们总是在一个群体中，我确保我再也不会孤单了。你需要朋友，你需要一个女朋友或男朋友什么的。你需要一个搭档，你需要一些东西。所以我认为你的身份来自于你的环境和你如何适应环境的背景。如果环境是不断涌入，你不知道。你只和陌生人说话。你已经不存在了。
Ray Richards (00:08:31): 雷理查兹（00：08：31）：
So that’s something about home, isn’t it? Redefining home, Home can be a place, but it can be people as well. Is that what you’re saying?
所以这就是家的感觉，不是吗？重新定义家，家可以是一个地方，但也可以是人。你是这个意思吗？
Pieter Levels (00:08:42):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. I think so. I talked to a therapist about it and she said similar where she said it can be people, it can be… She’s like, “Bring some object with you that you put in your room or something to make it home.” And I’m like, “Yeah.” It didn’t really work but I know what she was trying to say. I think you’re right. The home can be redefined. I think that the jealousy of always people at home with a regular life is not completely fair because having home tie is really important. It’s a different life and the safety and the comfort and the psychological comfort of a home is… You don’t necessarily, but I think it is important to have something like that. Anyway, it’s psychologically really, really challenging in the first few years for sure.
是啊我想是的我和一个治疗师谈过这个问题，她说了类似的话，她说可以是人，可以是…她说，“带上一些你放在房间里的东西或其他东西，让它回家。“我说“是啊“这并没有真正起作用，但我知道她想说什么。我想你是对的家可以重新定义。我认为，嫉妒总是在家里有规律的生活的人是不完全公平的，因为有家庭领带真的很重要。这是一个不同的生活和安全和舒适和心理安慰的家是.你不一定，但我认为有这样的东西很重要。无论如何，在最初的几年里，这在心理上确实是非常非常具有挑战性的。
Pieter Levels (00:09:33):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Slowing down has to do with it also, you slow down because you want to create more ties. It’s nice to live, for example, in two places. That’s my plan now, live in Portugal and live maybe in Bangkok or Bali or something for the winter because Europe gets called a new winter. But that creates more ties. You have proximity in repetition and friendship and relationships need proximity in repetition. You need to be near each other and you need to repeat interactions. That’s how you become friends. If you go to the same coffee shop every day, you will in inevitably, even if you’re socially maladapted, you’ll inevitably make friends after three months because you go there every day. That’s how it works.
放慢速度也与此有关，你放慢速度是因为你想创造更多的联系。比如说，在两个地方生活是很好的。这就是我现在的计划，住在葡萄牙，也许住在曼谷或巴厘岛或其他地方过冬，因为欧洲被称为新的冬天。但这创造了更多的联系。你在重复中有接近，友谊和关系需要在重复中接近。你需要彼此靠近，你需要重复互动。这样你们才能成为朋友如果你每天都去同一家咖啡店，你会不可避免地，即使你不适应社会，三个月后你也会不可避免地交到朋友，因为你每天都去那里。就是这样
Ray Richards (00:10:11): 雷理查兹（00：10：11）：
Yeah, well I think routines, when you are so repetition is routines and it’s just so important. It’s so important. Neil and I know each other through doing something different. And we’ve always been promoting the idea of stepping into the unknown, stepping out of your comfort zone and all that. But it has to be balanced with those routines because if you constantly have two feet in the unknown, it’s chaos.
是的，我认为例行公事，当你如此重复的时候就是例行公事，它是如此的重要。这很重要尼尔和我是通过做一些不同的事情来认识对方的。我们一直在推广进入未知世界的想法，走出你的舒适区等等。但它必须与这些惯例相平衡，因为如果你不断地在未知中有两只脚，那就是混乱。
Pieter Levels (00:10:41):
That’s a great statement. Yeah. Two feet, because you fall down.
Ray Richards (00:10:45):
Yeah, that’s right. If you’ve got feet in the known, that’s a rut. And what this podcast is actually about, in many senses is how to work that balance between having one foot in the known and one foot and the unknown. I think it’s really interesting to hear you say that people get depressed and anxious and just the whole mental health can go in the wrong direction because there’s no stability.
Pieter Levels (00:11:19):
The environment is influx and it’s so difficult to explain to people who are new because a lot of people now want go nomad because of remote work and stuff. Obviously my websites are about it and I’m promoter of it but I’ve always tried to promote it in a realistic way, not this, because before Nomad List and stuff website, there was all these shady websites like Live Your Dream Lifestyle on the beach, all this bullshit and it’s obviously not a dream lifestyle. It’s obviously very challenging. Then when you get everything together, your friends are near, you have a relationship, you go to the gym, you eat well, you make enough money to afford a nice place, then you’re like, “Okay now it works,” and that takes years. It’s so weird that it’s painted as this Instagram dream lifestyle.
环境是涌入，这是很难解释的人谁是新的，因为很多人现在想去游牧，因为远程工作和东西。很明显，我的网站是关于它的，我是它的推广者，但我一直试图以一种现实的方式推广它，而不是这个，因为在游牧民名单和网站之前，有所有这些阴暗的网站，比如在海滩上过你梦想的生活方式，所有这些废话，这显然不是一种梦想的生活方式。很明显这很有挑战性。然后当你把一切都安排好了，你的朋友就在附近，你有了一段感情，你去健身房，你吃得很好，你赚了足够的钱买得起一个好地方，然后你就像，“好吧，现在它工作了，”这需要几年时间。很奇怪，它被描绘成这种Instagram梦想的生活方式。
Ray Richards (00:12:09): 雷理查兹（00：12：09）：
Do you think if you’d have had a conversation with someone who’d have shared what you’ve just shared with you back then, you would’ve understood that and taken the advice? Or do you think you just have to learn it for yourself?
你认为如果你和一个分享你刚才分享的东西的人交谈，你会理解这一点并接受建议吗？还是你觉得你只需要自己去学？
Pieter Levels (00:12:26):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
The funny thing is, I didn’t know anything when I started. The only thing was, my friend told me because I graduated with master’s degree in Rotterdam business entrepreneurship and my friend was like, “You know, you can work on your laptop because I had a YouTube channel for music and I was making $2,000 a month.” And he’s like, “Why don’t you just buy a laptop and then go travel a little bit?” And I’m like, “Okay.” I didn’t know about diginomics, I didn’t know about.
有趣的是，我开始的时候什么都不知道。唯一的一件事是，我的朋友告诉我，因为我毕业于鹿特丹商业创业硕士学位，我的朋友说，“你知道，你可以在你的笔记本电脑上工作，因为我有一个YouTube音乐频道，我每个月赚2,000美元。他说：“你为什么不买一台笔记本电脑，然后去旅行呢？”我说“好吧“我不知道数字经济学，我不知道。
Pieter Levels (00:12:53):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I remember moving out of my house and my neighbor, this I think 50 year old guy was like, “Do you know Tim Ferriss?” I’m like, “No, I’ve no idea.” He wrote this book about what you’re going to do now. I’m like, “What? Really?” So I was like, “Okay.” I didn’t even read the book, just ignored it. I just flew somewhere. I flew to Bangkok actually and then I went to Chiang Mai in Thailand because I’d been backpacking here before and I didn’t know anything. I didn’t know even that there was any scene of people doing this. There was only 20 people in Chiang Mai back then and maybe there was 10,000 nomads in the world or something. It was very, very low. Anyway, I didn’t prepare anything and it was the fun part about it. It was exciting because I have no idea what was happening. It was all new.
我记得我从家里搬出来的时候，我的邻居，一个50岁的家伙说，“你认识蒂姆·费里斯吗？“我说“不我不知道“他写了这本书，关于你现在要做什么。我说“什么真的吗？“所以我说，“好吧。“我甚至没有读过这本书，只是忽略了它。我只是飞到了某个地方。我飞到了曼谷，然后我去了泰国的清迈，因为我以前在这里背包旅行，我什么都不知道。我甚至不知道有这样的场景。当时清迈只有20个人，世界上可能有10,000个游牧民族。它非常，非常低。不管怎样，我什么都没准备，这是最有趣的部分。这很令人兴奋，因为我不知道发生了什么。一切都是新的。
Neil Witten (00:13:44): 尼尔维滕（00：13：44）：
What were you searching for back then, Pieter, if you can remember. So let’s go back to some of the stuff that was going on in your world and what led towards the YouTube channel.
如果你还记得的话，皮特，你当时在找什么。所以让我们回到一些在你的世界里发生的事情，以及是什么导致了YouTube频道。
Pieter Levels (00:13:55):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well I think, so the channel was much earlier. It was 2008 because I had a music career. Actually I was in the UK a lot. I was doing drum and bass music. Drum and bass, maybe you guys know it.
我想，所以频道要早得多。2008年，因为我的音乐事业。事实上，我在英国呆了很长时间。我在演奏鼓和贝斯。鼓和贝司，也许你们知道。
Neil Witten (00:14:05): 尼尔维滕（00：14：05）：
We know it, yeah. 我们知道
Pieter Levels (00:14:07):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Okay, yeah. So pendulum and stuff, [inaudible 00:14:11] famous classic. I was obsessed with drum and bass music and I would go to London to parties. I would also a DJ in London. I would DJ in Holland. I had my own club night and stuff. I produced genres. That was the point. I made my own music. So I stuck out from all the other DJs in Holland because they didn’t know how to produce. I was good on computer so I could learn to make music on the computer and then I would play it in the club and stuff. And so I made my own album. I released it. People bought it, but it didn’t become the world’s famous super success I was planning to become so I was like, “Okay.” What I did was I uploaded it to YouTube, my music and back then nobody uploaded music to YouTube. This was 2007, 2008.
好吧[2019 - 01 - 15 00：00：00]经典名句我痴迷于鼓和低音音乐，我会去伦敦参加聚会。我也想在伦敦当DJ。我在荷兰当DJ。我有自己的俱乐部之夜。我制作了流派。这才是重点。我做了我自己的音乐。所以我从荷兰的其他DJ中脱颖而出，因为他们不知道如何制作。我擅长电脑，所以我可以学习在电脑上制作音乐，然后我会在俱乐部和东西中播放。所以我做了自己的专辑。我发行了它。人们买了它，但它并没有成为我计划成为的世界上著名的超级成功，所以我想，“好吧，“我所做的是把我的音乐上传到YouTube，当时没有人把音乐上传到YouTube。这是2007年，2008年。
Ray Richards (00:14:55): 雷理查兹（00：14：55）：
Well why did you upload it to YouTube?
那你为什么要上传到YouTube上
Pieter Levels (00:14:58):
For promotion because I needed to promote this album. I went to the factory and we got thousand copies pressed real CDs with the whole, I designed the whole artwork and everything and I needed to sell these CDs. I had some audience. I think I had a MailChimp newsletter or something, but I was like, “Okay, maybe I’ll just upload it to YouTube.” I knew Adobe After Effects, so I put it in Premier and I made a video. Back then it was really… Nobody understands this. Back then there was music files, MP3 or WAV files and it was video files and it didn’t make any sense to put your music in a video file and put it on YouTube because YouTube was for home videos or viral videos and stuff and vloggers. Anyway, I did that and that was accidental success and it became the second biggest channel in Holland.
因为我需要宣传这张专辑。我去了工厂，我们得到了数千份压制的真实的CD，我设计了整个艺术品和所有的东西，我需要卖这些CD。我有一些观众。我想我有一个MailChimp的时事通讯什么的，但我想，“好吧，也许我会把它上传到YouTube。“我知道Adobe After Effects，所以我把它放在Premier中，并制作了一个视频。当时真的是…没人能理解当时有音乐文件，MP3或WAV文件，它是视频文件，它没有任何意义，把你的音乐在视频文件，并把它放在YouTube上，因为YouTube是家庭视频或病毒视频和东西和视频博客。无论如何，我做到了，这是偶然的成功，它成为荷兰第二大频道。
Pieter Levels (00:15:56):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It became this whole music empire of different genres, first drum and bass and dubstep, very important dubstep blew up at 2010. YouTube started paying me money first, a hundred dollars and thousand dollars, $2,000 at some point, $8,000 per month. I was a student at university. So I was like, “Yeah, this is great.” I was studying business, so I was like, “Well this is a business now. It pivoted. It moved from artistic music to… Oh this is our music business on YouTube, making money to then graduating and then my friend saying, “Can you also make these videos on your laptop?” And I was like, “I tried to find a laptop that could render these videos.” Yeah, that works.
它变成了一个不同流派的音乐帝国，第一个鼓，贝司和dubstep，非常重要的dubstep在2010年爆炸了。YouTube开始先付我钱，100美元和1000美元，有时2,000美元，每月8,000美元。我是个大学生。所以我说，“是啊，这是伟大的。“我在学商业，所以我想，“好吧，这是一个企业现在。它转动了。它从艺术音乐转向了…哦，这是我们在YouTube上的音乐业务，赚钱，然后毕业，然后我的朋友说，“你也可以在你的笔记本电脑上制作这些视频吗？“我想，“我试图找到一个笔记本电脑，可以渲染这些视频。“是啊，那是我的孩子。”
Ray Richards (00:16:40): 雷理查兹（00：16：40）：
Interesting, isn’t it because what you did there was, you said it was accidental, but you were innovating, You were just thinking, “Well let’s try this.” Sometimes those innovations work and sometimes they don’t.
有意思，是不是因为你说这是偶然的，但你是在创新，你只是在想，“我们试试这个.“有时这些创新是有效的，有时则不然。
Pieter Levels (00:16:59):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, but it’s always for a different reason. You’re doing it then what it turns out to be successful-
是啊，但每次都是为了别的原因。如果你这么做的话结果会很成功-
Ray Richards (00:17:04): 雷理查兹（00：17：04）：
Yeah, that’s right. 是的没错
Pieter Levels (00:17:05):
The purpose was marketing myself, selling these CDs, these thousand CDs for $10 or something or $6 and it became something completely different. If I didn’t make that CD myself, I wouldn’t be sitting here talking to you because all that stuff led to this.
目的是推销我自己，卖这些CD，这一千张CD卖10美元或6美元，它变成了完全不同的东西。如果我没有自己做那张CD，我就不会坐在这里和你说话，因为所有的东西都导致了这一点。
Ray Richards (00:17:21): 雷理查兹（00：17：21）：
You didn’t know. You don’t know. There might have been another route we’d have got you at some point.
你并不知道的你不知道可能还有其他路线我们会在某个时候找到你。
Pieter Levels (00:17:29):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 是啊，是啊，是啊。
Neil Witten (00:17:31): 尼尔维滕（00：17：31）：
That’s what I’m intrigued by. Ray’s thinking in the same way that I’m thinking about this, that you described it as a happy coincidence because you put your stuff onto YouTube, but there was some reason why you decided to do that. It might have been because you had some skills that other people didn’t have. But beyond that, you also imagine something about what that might lead to. And that could be a whole range of different things. There’s some amount of creative mind that you’re applying to something and then the other thing is that you noticed. You noticed a hundred dollars, then a thousand dollars, then $2,000 and you stayed the course long enough to see that to $8,000 where suddenly you then were able to recognize that there is a way of being able to earn money, create money that was less traditional.
这正是我感兴趣的。雷的想法和我的想法一样，你把它描述为一个快乐的巧合，因为你把你的东西放在YouTube上，但你决定这样做是有原因的。这可能是因为你有一些其他人没有的技能。但除此之外，你也想象一下这可能导致什么。这可能是一系列不同的事情。有一些创造性的头脑，你正在应用到一些东西，然后另一件事是，你注意到。你注意到100美元，然后1000美元，然后2,000美元，你在课程中停留了足够长的时间，看到8,000美元，突然你能够认识到有一种方法可以赚钱，创造不那么传统的钱。
Pieter Levels (00:18:23):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well who would quit when you make more and more money every month? Who would delete this YouTube, right? Yeah.
当你每个月赚的钱越来越多的时候，谁会辞职呢？谁会删了这个YouTube对吧是啊
Neil Witten (00:18:28): 尼尔维滕（00：18：28）：
Especially when you’re student.
尤其是当你是学生的时候。
Pieter Levels (00:18:31):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was loads of money. It’s still loads of money. One thing you said, Neil, about skills. Interesting thing was I was doing graphic design also. I was always doing stuff on a computer. As a teenager, when I was even 9 years old or something and I learned Photoshop first to do graphic design stuff and arts and then I learned After Effects, which was pretty much Photoshop for video where you could also have layers and you could move all these layers and you could do motion graphics. I was obsessed with motion graphics. It would look so cool like a camera. I wanted to become a motion graphics designer when I was maybe 14 or something I think.
是啊是啊，那可是一大笔钱。还是很多钱尼尔，你说的关于技能的一件事。有趣的是，我也在做平面设计。我总是在电脑上做一些事情。作为一个青少年，当我9岁左右的时候，我首先学习Photoshop来做平面设计和艺术，然后我学习了After Effects，这几乎是视频的Photoshop，你也可以有图层，你可以移动所有这些图层，你可以做动态图形。我对动态图像很着迷。它看起来很酷，像一个相机。我想成为一个动态图形设计师，当我可能是14岁左右，我想。
Pieter Levels (00:19:08):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Those skills of After Effects I used later on YouTube. Most people didn’t know how After Effects worked or Premier back then. Now a lot more. Nobody knew how video works. I could use that to render my MP3 files as videos with my photo on it and upload on YouTube where the only other content that was on YouTube, like I said, came from camera, so you upload from your camera to YouTube maybe. Right? So that’s a skill that I had before and then it became useful again.
我后来在YouTube上使用了After Effects的这些技能。大多数人不知道After Effects是如何工作的，也不知道当时的Premier是如何工作的。现在更多了。没有人知道视频是如何工作的。我可以用它来渲染我的MP3文件作为视频，上面有我的照片，并上传到YouTube上，YouTube上唯一的其他内容，就像我说的，来自相机，所以你可以从你的相机上传到YouTube。对不对？所以这是我以前的一项技能，然后它又变得有用了。
Ray Richards (00:19:38): 雷理查兹（00：19：38）：
And that was making you stand out from the crowd?
这让你脱颖而出吗
Pieter Levels (00:19:42):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah because other people didn’t know how After Effects worked or even design with Photoshop, especially 2008. People were much less skilled at computer stuff than now. Now everybody can… Software is also much easier now but back then After Effect would Crash, the Photoshop would crash. It was all quite difficult. It’s interesting how it all happened.
是的，因为其他人不知道After Effects是如何工作的，甚至不知道如何用Photoshop设计，尤其是2008年。人们对电脑的熟练程度远不如现在。现在每个人都可以…软件现在也容易得多，但回到当时后效果会崩溃，Photoshop会崩溃。一切都很艰难。这一切是如何发生的很有趣。
Neil Witten (00:20:08): 尼尔维滕（00：20：08）：
So let’s go back to that moment where you decided that you were going to book your flight and go off and start nomading, not knowing what nomading was then. Can you tell us more about it? The YouTube channel was away, you were making some money, but at that point you were probably knowing it or not knowing. You’re searching for something. Take us back there and tell us more about what was going on in your head? What was going on in your life? What do you think you were looking for as a next step?
让我们回到那个时刻，你决定要订机票，然后出发，开始流浪，那时还不知道什么是流浪。你能告诉我们更多关于它吗？YouTube频道消失了，你赚了一些钱，但在这一点上，你可能知道或不知道。你在找什么东西。带我们回去告诉我们你脑子里到底在想什么？你生活中发生了什么？你认为你在寻找什么作为下一步？
Pieter Levels (00:20:38):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Okay, so I think my brain is like… I don’t believe in ADHD or ADD, but people always say, You’re quite hyper.” Could also be the coffee. I do think my brain goes quite fast because the comments on my YouTube… I do this startup presentation sometimes on YouTube and the comments are always like, “Okay, you need to play it on 0.75 speeds for it to be normal.” So I realized I go fast. I think fast at 1.5 times probably. I realized my whole life that I didn’t want to have a big corporate life, like a nine to five thing. I was already making graphic arts about intense, but corporate enslavement. You see a guy in his suit.
好吧，我想我的大脑就像…我不相信ADHD或ADD，但人们总是说，你太兴奋了。“也可能是咖啡。我觉得我的脑子转得挺快的因为我YouTube上的评论…我有时在YouTube上做这个启动演示，评论总是这样，“好吧，你需要以0.75的速度播放它才能正常。“我意识到我走得很快。我想大概是1.5倍吧。我意识到我的整个生活，我不想有一个大的企业生活，像一个朝九晚五的事情。我已经在做关于强烈的，但公司奴役的图形艺术。你看到一个穿着西装的人。
Ray Richards (00:21:27): 雷理查兹（00：21：27）：
Oh really? Wow.” 哦，真的？哇哦“
Pieter Levels (00:21:29):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
All these posters I was making at 11. I don’t know where they came from, but there was something there that I was against big corporate and this managers and this office and this vibe. I was alternative kid kind. I was skater, so skateboarder. And I like, “Fuck the system, fuck the man.”
我11岁时做的这些海报。我不知道他们从哪里来，但有一些东西，我反对大公司和这个经理，这个办公室和这种氛围。我是个另类的孩子。我是溜冰的，所以是滑板的。我喜欢，“去他妈的制度，去他妈的人。“
Neil Witten (00:21:51): 尼尔维滕（00：21：51）：
Let me just ask the obvious question so I don’t miss it, Pieter, but why study business then?
让我问一个显而易见的问题，这样我就不会错过它，彼得，但为什么要学习商业呢？
Pieter Levels (00:21:57):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It’s amazing. Great question. You’re smart guy, Neil. Because-
太神奇了问得好你很聪明，尼尔。因为-
Ray Richards (00:22:00): 雷理查兹（00：22：00）：
Well that question, you wouldn’t base it on that question.
这个问题，你不会把它建立在这个问题上。
Pieter Levels (00:22:06):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
He said it now. He said it.
他现在说了。他说了
Pieter Levels (00:22:08):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I wanted to… Okay, I’m not a communist, but I wanted to hack the system from within. That was really the reason because I knew that if I didn’t make money I’d have to get an office job. So I was like, if I learned this capitalism and economics and business from within as artist guy, musician and designer and graphics and stuff because I knew artists would never get rich because this hardly happens, especially back then there was not NFTs. I knew that I had to learn the system from within to escape it and I really wanted to escape it. That’s really the truth. At 16, I already needed to escape this system of going to office. Nothing against it for other people, but for me, it’s not my thing. I cannot do it. It’s hard for me to even sit in school with teachers telling me what to do. I couldn’t do it.
我想…好吧，我不是共产主义者，但我想从内部侵入系统。这就是真正的原因，因为我知道，如果我不赚钱，我就必须找一份办公室工作。所以我想，如果我从艺术家、音乐家、设计师和图形师的角度学习资本主义、经济学和商业，因为我知道艺术家永远不会致富，因为这几乎不会发生，特别是在没有NFT的时候。我知道我必须从内部学习这个系统来逃避它，我真的很想逃避它。这是真的。在16岁的时候，我已经需要逃离这个去办公室的系统。对其他人来说，这并不反对，但对我来说，这不是我的事情。我做不到。我甚至很难坐在学校里听老师告诉我该做什么。我做不到
Pieter Levels (00:23:07):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I did elementary school which was Montessori. My parents put me in Montessori and in high school was regular school and I hated high school because you need to sit in this fucking structure. Montessori is really a creative school where you sit in groups, not in a class structure. I think there’s teacher and there’s sub teachers and stuff and they just tell you what you can do, whatever you want to do, just go play with blocks or play with letters or play with numbers. It’s really free and it’s always, you sit in groups with four other kids or something and you have your own plants your water, and it’s all really cute and very chill school. I think that has been important in how I became, because they let you make mistakes. If you do something strange with your blocks or whatever, they’re like, “Wow, that looks cool” instead of “That’s wrong.” There was never that’s wrong, and I think that affected me.
我上的是蒙台梭利小学。我父母把我送到蒙特梭利，高中是普通学校，我讨厌高中，因为你需要坐在这个该死的结构。蒙台梭利是一个真正的创造性学校，你坐在小组，而不是在一个班级结构。我想有老师和代课老师之类的，他们只是告诉你你能做什么，不管你想做什么，只是去玩积木，玩字母，玩数字。它真的是免费的，它总是，你坐在小组与其他四个孩子或什么，你有自己的植物，你的水，这一切都是非常可爱，非常寒冷的学校。我认为这对我的成长很重要，因为他们让你犯错误。如果你用积木做了一些奇怪的事情，他们会说，“哇，看起来很酷”，而不是“这是错误的。”“从来没有错，我认为这影响了我。
Neil Witten (00:24:08): 尼尔维滕（00：24：08）：
Have you ever spoken to your parents about the decision to put you into Montessori, but also the decision then to put you into a traditional school after that?
你有没有和你的父母谈过把你送到蒙特梭利的决定，以及之后把你送到传统学校的决定？
Pieter Levels (00:24:18):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, the high school was my own choice because my brothers were there, but the high school… There was a Montessori high school but it wasn’t a good school and this school was the best high school in my hometown.
嗯，高中是我自己的选择，因为我的兄弟在那里，但高中…有一所蒙特梭利高中，但它不是一所好学校，这所学校是我家乡最好的高中。
Neil Witten (00:24:34): 尼尔维滕（00：24：34）：
Your parents’ choice to put you into Montessori originally?
你父母当初让你去蒙台梭利的决定？
Pieter Levels (00:24:38):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah because you’re [inaudible 00:24:39] you already starts at five or something.
是的，因为你是[听不见的00：24：39]你已经开始在5或东西。
Neil Witten (00:24:41): 尼尔维滕（00：24：41）：
Were they doing that because they valued the likely outcome or do you think they were doing it because they recognized creativity in you and thought that would be a better place for you?
他们这样做是因为他们重视可能的结果，还是你认为他们这样做是因为他们认识到你的创造力，认为这对你来说会是一个更好的地方？
Pieter Levels (00:24:54):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, I have two older brothers. They also went to Montessori, so we all went to the same school and same high schools. I think they did it because, maybe it’s because…
我有两个哥哥。他们也去了蒙特梭利，所以我们都去了同一所学校和同一所高中。我想他们这么做是因为，也许是因为…
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:25:04]
第1章四个结局
Pieter Levels (00:25:00):
Pieter Levels（00：25：00）：
… I think they did it, because… I mean, maybe it’s because they also come from the hippie time, the ’60s and stuff, and they’re also a little bit like, “Fuck the system,” and they’re like, “You should think for yourself.” It’s a lot about upbringing too. “You should think for yourself. Don’t trust if everybody like a sheep group all jump into the river. Don’t trust them. Don’t do the same. Just think for yourself. You’re probably right.” And that’s really good lesson, I think. And “Do what makes you happy. Don’t lie. Don’t cheat people. Don’t scam people. Always do good,” ethics, moral, just those basics. And that’s already enough kind of to…
…我觉得是他们干的，因为…我的意思是，也许是因为他们也来自嬉皮士时代，60年代之类的，他们也有点像，“去他妈的系统，”他们就像，“你应该为自己着想。“这也是关于教养的。“你应该为自己想想。不要相信，如果大家都像羊群一样跳进河里。别相信他们不要做同样的事情。你自己想想。也许你是对的“这是一个很好的教训，我想。“做让你快乐的事。别撒谎别骗人。别骗人。总是做好事，”伦理，道德，只是这些基本的。这已经足够…
Ray Richards (00:25:42): 雷理查兹（00：25：42）：
And I think it’s probably quite useful, I would imagine, to get both sides, the Montessori and the mainstream schools. Because if you just have the Montessori, you don’t necessarily understand other people’s…
我想这可能是非常有用的，我可以想象，让蒙特梭利和主流学校都参与进来。因为如果你只有蒙台梭利，你不一定能理解别人的…
Pieter Levels (00:26:00):
Pieter Levels（00：26：00）：
Yeah. That’s a bubble right. Montessori’s a bubble of course. Montessori, I mean. I think it’s a little bit upper middle class people anyway. So it’s definitely a bubble. And there was more exposure of real worlds at the high school, for sure, and there was even more at university. And then moving out of my hometown to Amsterdam, you’re like, “Oh, this is the real world. This is completely different,” and this hometown with these schools and completely different world. And then you go travel and you’re like, “Wow. It’s even crazier.” Every time it gets crazy.
是啊这是一个泡沫的权利。当然，蒙台梭利是一个泡沫。我是说蒙台梭利。我觉得这是一个有点中上层阶级的人。所以这绝对是个泡沫。当然，在高中时接触到的真实的世界更多，而在大学里接触到的更多。然后从我的家乡搬到阿姆斯特丹，你就像，“哦，这是真实的世界。这是完全不同的，”而这个家乡跟这些学校又完全不同的世界。然后你去旅行，你就像，“哇。更疯狂了。”每次它变得疯狂。
Ray Richards (00:26:34): 雷理查兹（00：26：34）：
Yeah, yeah. Well, a friend of mine, I think I said this to Neil the other day, he said to me, he said, “You can only see what you can see. Imagine what else is out there.”
是啊是啊嗯，我的一个朋友，我想我有一天对尼尔说了这句话，他对我说，他说，“你只能看到你能看到的。想象一下外面还有什么。“
Pieter Levels (00:26:44):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. 100%. And to offend all the American listeners, I tweeted yesterday about I’m excited about the time that Americans realize there’s 7.6 billion people outside the US and that’s there’s a world there, because they’re a little bit insulated, not everybody, but some Americans. And that’s the whole thing. If you go abroad, if you travel, even to your neighboring country, you learn so much. It’s…
是啊百分百确定为了冒犯所有的美国听众，我昨天在推特上说，我很兴奋美国人意识到美国以外有76亿人，那里有一个世界，因为他们有点孤立，不是每个人，但一些美国人。这就是全部。如果你出国，如果你旅行，甚至到你的邻国，你会学到很多东西。这…
Ray Richards (00:27:12): 雷理查兹（00：27：12）：
Do you know what- 你知道吗-
Pieter Levels (00:27:13):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Especially if you live there for a few months. Yeah.
特别是如果你在那里住了几个月。是啊
Ray Richards (00:27:15): 雷理查兹（00：27：15）：
Do you know what I think if you just go to a different part of your own town, you suddenly start to see. I mean, it’s incredible. I mean, I’ve lived in Brighton for 25 years. I’m now in a different part of town. It’s like, “Oh, wow. Oh, wow.”
你知道我在想什么吗如果你只是去你自己城市的另一个地方，你突然开始看到。我是说，这太不可思议了。我在布莱顿住了25年。我现在在城里的另一个地方。就像，“哦，哇。哦哇哦“
Pieter Levels (00:27:31):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
100%. Every town has east, west, south, north, and it’s completely different and there’s different people living there and you just got to talk to them. And I’m not great at that, because you’re right. I should explore my hometown more, but I’m exploring 6,000 miles away. So…
百分百确定每个城镇都有东，西，南，北，它是完全不同的，有不同的人住在那里，你只需要和他们交谈。我不擅长这个，因为你是对的。我应该多探索我的家乡，但我在探索6,000英里以外的地方。所以…
Ray Richards (00:27:47): 雷理查兹（00：27：47）：
Yeah. No. But I think there’s a time and a place for exploring far afield [inaudible 00:27:51]. And I think COVID has helped us all in a way explore locally, whether that being the streets around you, further afield in the town around you or your own just spent… When I’ve been away, I’ve been away in the UK. And do you know what? It’s been absolutely fantastic exploring those places.
是啊不，但我认为有一个时间和一个地方去探索遥远的地方。我认为COVID在某种程度上帮助了我们所有人探索当地，无论是你周围的街道，你周围更远的城镇，还是你自己刚刚度过的……当我离开的时候，我一直在英国。你知道吗？探索这些地方真是太棒了。
Pieter Levels (00:28:14):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
100%. 100%. Yeah. I did the same. During COVID, I was in Holland and I explored my parents’ neighborhoods. You talk to your neighbors and stuff. We went traveling through Holland. I saw nature I’ve never seen within Holland. Something called the [foreign language 00:28:31] which is… It looked like a desert with pink, purple grass and it looked psychedelic as fuck. Crazy trees. Crazy wind. I didn’t even know that existed. So, yeah, 100%.
百分百确定百分百确定是啊我也做了同样的事。在新冠肺炎期间，我在荷兰，我探索了我父母的社区。你和你的邻居聊天什么的。我们穿越了荷兰。我看到了在荷兰从未见过的大自然。一种叫做[外语]的东西，它是…它看起来像一个粉红色的沙漠，紫色的草，它看起来像他妈的迷幻。疯狂的树疯狂的风我都不知道有这么个地方。所以，是的，百分之百。
Ray Richards (00:28:45): 雷理查兹（00：28：45）：
And I think the people that are listening have probably got their own experiences of that. Certainly when I’m talking to people around me, they’ve done exactly that. My friend, Nick, he discovered this whole area of woodland that is literally 100 yards from his house that he never knew was there.
我想正在听的人可能有自己的经历。当然，当我和周围的人交谈时，他们也确实这样做了。我的朋友，尼克，他发现了这整个地区的林地，这是字面上100码从他的房子，他从来不知道那里。
Pieter Levels (00:29:02):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Crazy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Man, I think that’s a really fun, cute kind of angle of travel also. You don’t need to fly really, really far to have a completely different experience. You can find it really close by too. It’s all about your own mind and… Yeah.
疯了是啊是啊，是啊，是啊。是啊伙计，我觉得这也是一个很有趣，很可爱的旅行角度。你不需要飞很远很远就能有完全不同的体验。你也可以在附近找到它。一切都取决于你自己的想法…是啊
Neil Witten (00:29:23): 尼尔维滕（00：29：23）：
Yeah. I was going to make the point that when we’re talking about travel, we’re talking about travel in a physical sense, but we could go a bit maybe spiritual and go, “Well, what about the travel in your own head?” And I noticed that you said it almost looks psychedelic. And it made me think and I’m going to ask the question. Have you ventured into any psychedelic worlds, Pieter? And if so, when? And how has that affected your perspective?
是啊我想指出的是，当我们谈论旅行时，我们谈论的是物理意义上的旅行，但我们可以谈一点精神上的旅行，然后说，“那么，你自己的旅行呢？“我注意到你说它看起来几乎是迷幻的。它让我思考，我会问这个问题。你冒险进入过迷幻世界吗，彼得？如果是的话，什么时候？这对你的观点有什么影响？
Pieter Levels (00:29:55):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, I’m in Thailand now, so it’s very legal. But no. So I’ve done mushrooms in Holland when I was 16 or 17, which is really fun. But I threw up over the entire wall of my friend’s parents’ house. And then-
我现在在泰国，所以这是法律的.所以我在荷兰做蘑菇当我16或17岁的时候，这真的很有趣。但我吐了我朋友父母家的整面墙。然后-
Ray Richards (00:30:13): 雷理查兹（00：30：13）：
I love the fact that you threw up over into the neighbor’s garden or…
我喜欢你吐到邻居的花园里或者…
Pieter Levels (00:30:18):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No. Into the living room wall. We were sitting [inaudible 00:30:21] and then I threw up next to the TV on the wall, like bleurgh. And then I remember it was with four best friends and we had to clean it, because it’s like these fucking parents, they might come home or something. So we were cleaning it with towels, wet towels, and it was everywhere. It was next to the TV. It was there. And then my friend was cleaning behind the TV and he’s like, “Pieter it’s even behind the TV.” And then I was like, “We are doing mushrooms and mushrooms hallucinate. How can vomit be behind the TV when I vomited there and the TV’s there?” And I was like, “What if we’re just hallucinating vomit everywhere?” And he’s like, “Ah, interesting.” because it was everywhere. And then after the whole trip, there was no vomit anywhere.
不，是射到客厅的墙上.我们坐着[听不见00：30：21]，然后我吐在电视旁边的墙上，像bleurgh。然后我记得是和四个最好的朋友在一起，我们不得不打扫它，因为就像那些该死的父母，他们可能会回家什么的。所以我们用毛巾，湿毛巾来清理，到处都是。就在电视旁边。它就在那里。然后我的朋友在打扫电视后面，他说，“彼得，它甚至在电视后面。然后我就说，“我们正在做蘑菇和蘑菇幻觉。“我吐在电视机后面电视机就在那里怎么会有呕吐物？我想，“如果我们只是幻觉到处呕吐呢？“他说，“啊，有意思。因为到处都是整个旅程之后，到处都没有呕吐物。
Neil Witten (00:31:13): 尼尔维滕（00：31：13）：
So you don’t know whether or not that was part of the experience or whether you actually just did a great job of cleaning it up?
所以你不知道这是否是经验的一部分，或者你是否真的做了一个伟大的工作，清理它？
Pieter Levels (00:31:18):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Exactly. Maybe I just hallucinated everything. And I told my friends and then they hallucinated it too. So anyway, it was really fun. I did that. I think I did ecstasy, [inaudible 00:31:36] and [inaudible 00:31:36] speed, I think. So it’s very… I got really paranoid. [inaudible 00:31:42] made it feel really fake. All these people were fake happy and hugging you at the festivals, like, “Oh, my God.” And I met old classmates who I was never friends with and they were like, “Oh, my God. Wow. So great.” It felt so fake. I was like, “This is bullshit. We’re all on drugs and this is not my thing.” And it almost felt also satanic where I was looked left and I saw 10s of 1000s people dancing on techno. And I love techno, but it looked like The Matrix, inner Earth, kind of satanic ritual. And maybe this was not good drugs. But then I did [inaudible 00:32:20] later. It was really nice, was happy.
没错也许我只是幻觉。我告诉了我的朋友们然后他们也产生了幻觉。总之，真的很有趣。是我干的我想我做了摇头丸，[听不见的00：31：36]速度，我想。所以这很…我真的很偏执。#21453;，让人感觉真的是假的。所有这些人都假装很高兴在节日里拥抱你，就像，“哦，我的天啊。“我遇到了我从来没有朋友的老同学，他们说，“哦，我的上帝。哇哦太棒了“感觉好假。我就说“这是胡扯我们都在吸毒，这不是我的事。“在我向左看的地方，我几乎感觉到撒旦的存在，我看到1000多人在电子音乐上跳舞。我喜欢电子乐，但它看起来像黑客帝国，内部地球，一种撒旦仪式。也许这不是好药。后来，我也是这样做的。很好，很开心。
Pieter Levels (00:32:21):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
But I think this is a problem with me. This sounds arrogant. My mind is already quite open and I’m already radically honest to you guys now. I’m not really keeping secrets here. I’m just throwing everything on the table. And I think a lot of people use psychedelics to open up. And I think I’m already quite open. So even if I drink alcohol, I’m not that different. I just become more happy and I… Yeah. So…
但我认为这是我的问题。这听起来很傲慢。我的思想已经很开放了，我现在已经对你们完全诚实了。我不是真的在这里保守秘密。我只是把所有的事都摊开来说。我想很多人用迷幻药来打开心扉。我想我已经很开放了。所以即使我喝酒，我也没什么不同。我变得更快乐了，我…是啊所以…
Neil Witten (00:32:48): 尼尔维滕（00：32：48）：
Let’s go back. So I’m just going to do a bit of a summary of some of the stuff we’ve touched on. So Montessori and then to a more traditional school. So there’s an interesting yin, yang there. And then this kind of, “Fuck corporate world. Want to fight the system,” so you go to study business in order to understand how it works so that you can break it from within. There’s also this interesting thing going on between kind of art and science, because you are kind of gravitating towards artistic skills or artistic qualities but you’re applying them in quite scientific ways. And then we were zooming in on this moment in your life where you decided then to go away. Let’s go back to that time. And you were how you know that you think fast and you were talking about the stuff that was probably going on your head at the time or some of the feedback that you were getting from the YouTube channel.
我们回去吧我会对我们讲过的内容做一个总结，蒙台梭利，然后是一个更传统的学校。所以这里有一个有趣的阴，阳。然后是这种，“去他妈的企业界。想要对抗这个系统，”所以你去学习商业，以了解它是如何运作的，这样你就可以从内部打破它。在艺术和科学之间也有一种有趣的现象，因为你会被艺术技巧或艺术品质所吸引，但你会以相当科学的方式应用它们。然后我们放大了你生命中的这一刻，你决定离开。让我们回到那个时候。你是如何知道你思考得很快的，你在谈论当时可能在你脑海中的东西，或者你从YouTube频道得到的一些反馈。
Pieter Levels (00:33:58):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. Yeah. So exactly. I drifted off. So what I meant was that in university, in college, life is really fun, because everybody has a few hours they need to go and you don’t really need to go to these lectures anyway. So you can hang with your friends all day. Always we would hang at each other’s houses. We’d do stuff. We’d party. We’d make music and stuff together. I had rapper friends. Anyway. That all stopped when we graduated, because everybody had to get a job. And I knew this was going to happen. So graduation was my biggest fear, for me and for everything, because I knew everyone was going to change.
是啊是啊就是这样我睡着了。所以我的意思是在大学里，在大学里，生活真的很有趣，因为每个人都有几个小时，他们需要去，你真的不需要去这些讲座。所以你可以整天和你的朋友在一起。我们总是在彼此的家里玩。我们一起做些事。我们会开派对。我们一起做音乐什么的。我有说唱朋友。反正当我们毕业的时候，这一切都停止了，因为每个人都必须找到工作。我就知道会这样。所以毕业是我最大的恐惧，对我来说，对一切来说，因为我知道每个人都会改变。
Pieter Levels (00:34:41):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
And honestly what happened was, because everybody graduates kind of different time this year, next year, it kind of just already immediately started happening where the only time we had was in the evening because you have to work all day, and then people move in with girlfriend or boyfriend. So that takes some time. And then you see each other once a week and you get drunk because that’s what people do in UK and Holland. We get drunk in the weekends. And I was, I think, 26 or something. And you get very drunk because you don’t have a lot of time. You have two days to party. So you get really drunk. And I would only drink maybe once a month or something or twice a month, because I didn’t really like it so much. But the point is life became so much more boring. It was so much more interesting in college. It was so fun and creative in college and then it just became… Everybody kind of hated their job. And it became first alcohol and then drugs. Love drugs, like Amsterdam, London, same, but in a really bad way.
老实说，发生的事情是，因为今年每个人的毕业时间都不一样，明年，它已经开始发生了，我们唯一的时间是在晚上，因为你必须工作一整天，然后人们搬去和女朋友或男朋友住。所以这需要一些时间。然后你们每周见一次面，喝得酩酊大醉，因为这是英国人和荷兰人做的事。我们在周末喝醉了。我当时大概26岁吧。你喝得酩酊大醉，因为你没有太多的时间。你们有两天时间狂欢所以你喝得烂醉。我大概一个月只喝一次或两次，因为我真的不太喜欢。但关键是生活变得无聊多了。在大学里更有趣。在大学的时候很有趣很有创意然后就变得…每个人都讨厌他们的工作。先是酒精，然后是毒品。 喜欢毒品，像阿姆斯特丹，伦敦，一样，但在一个非常糟糕的方式。
Pieter Levels (00:35:52):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
A lot of cocaine. Not me. I never did it, but a lot of people in Amsterdam do it. And that became the party scene because people wanted to go extra hard. So they would do cocaine, other stuff, I don’t even need to mention, but it was like we have two days and then, fuck, Monday to Friday went to work again. So we need to go extra hard on the weekends. And I just didn’t agree with that whole concept because I was doing YouTube channel and I had fun and I could work anytime. And I did have days where I had to work, but I didn’t feel this was a healthy fucking lifestyle. It just wasn’t. Just absolutely wasn’t.
很多可卡因。我没有。我从来没有做过，但在阿姆斯特丹很多人都做。这成了聚会的场景，因为人们想做得更努力。所以他们会做可卡因，其他的东西，我甚至不需要提到，但这就像我们有两天，然后，他妈的，周一到周五又去工作了。所以我们周末要加倍努力。我只是不同意整个概念，因为我在做YouTube频道，我很开心，我可以随时工作。我确实有过不得不工作的日子，但我不觉得这是一种健康的生活方式。但事实并非如此。完全不是。
Ray Richards (00:36:26): 雷理查兹（00：36：26）：
I think this is interesting because I think it’s the same thing with… I sort of see a parallel with holidays. If people are looking forward to their holidays so much, what’s wrong with their life? And it’s the same with alcohol and drugs. If you really, really you smash it, there’s something wrong. There needs to be more balance.
我觉得这很有趣因为我觉得这和…我觉得这和假期有点相似。如果人们如此期待假期，他们的生活有什么问题？酒精和毒品也是如此。如果你真的，真的把它砸了，那就有问题了。需要有更多的平衡。
Pieter Levels (00:36:52):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yes. That’s the reason why people in… I keep saying UK, Holland, because it’s a similar culture. We go to extremely hot holiday resorts or places where it’s 40 Celsius. It’s way too hot. But it’s because it’s a counterbalance to cold [inaudible 00:37:07].
是的这就是为什么人们…我一直在说英国，荷兰，因为这是一个相似的文化。我们去非常热的度假胜地或40摄氏度的地方。太热了。但这是因为它是一个平衡冷[听不清00：37：07]。
Ray Richards (00:37:06): 雷理查兹（00：37：06）：
That’s right. It’s reaction. It’s a reaction. Yeah.
没错.是反应。这是一种反应。是啊
Pieter Levels (00:37:09):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It’s a reaction, but it’s extreme. They’re both extreme. They’re not balanced at all. Shitty, cold, rainy weather in the office and then super hot Magaluf. That’s where all UK go.
是一种反应，但很极端。他们都很极端。它们一点也不平衡。在办公室里又冷又下雨，然后是超级热的马加卢夫。所有英国人都去那里。
Ray Richards (00:37:22): 雷理查兹（00：37：22）：
You’ve been there too? 你也去过那里？
Pieter Levels (00:37:24):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No. I went to Majorca, also UK, but anyway. It’s extreme. And I don’t like 40 Celsius. I like 25. I like 20. You know what I mean?
号我去了马略卡岛，也是英国，但无论如何。太极端了。我不喜欢40摄氏度。我喜欢25。我喜欢20。你懂我的意思吗？
Ray Richards (00:37:32): 雷理查兹（00：37：32）：
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Nice temperature.
是啊当然了当然了温度不错
Pieter Levels (00:37:36):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So that’s lukewarm. Anyway, I think that’s it, the same weekends. And [inaudible 00:37:41]-
所以这是不冷不热。总之，我想就是这样，同样的周末。”[2019 - 01 - 15 00：00：00]
Neil Witten (00:37:41): 尼尔维滕（00：37：41）：
Were you questioning your friends? Because you’ve got this sort, “Fuck the system,” attitude to the corporate world. And at that time, it sounds like you’re really experiencing it, because what you loved about your life with your friends being around and the creativity of college has now been taken away and it’s been taken away by the system that you knew was going to show up at some point.
你在询问你的朋友吗？因为你对企业界有一种“去他妈的体制”的态度。在那个时候，听起来你真的在经历它，因为你喜欢你的生活，你的朋友在身边，大学的创造力现在已经被带走了，它被你知道会在某个时候出现的系统带走了。
Pieter Levels (00:38:10):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. 是啊
Neil Witten (00:38:11): 尼尔维滕（00：38：11）：
So were you challenging it at that time?
那你当时有没有质疑过？
Pieter Levels (00:38:14):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Look, if the whole city at your age does the same thing, how do you… I was the weird one. They were not weird. I was weird. They were not wrong. They just did what everybody did. And…
听着，如果整个城市在你这个年纪都在做同样的事，你怎么…我才是奇怪的那个一点都不奇怪。我很奇怪。他们没有错。他们只是做了每个人都做的事。而且…
Neil Witten (00:38:28):
But were you in any way trying to show people that there was another way at that time?
但是你有没有以任何方式试图向人们展示当时还有另一种方法？
Pieter Levels (00:38:36):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, the problem was that I always got invited to parties every weekend or something and I didn’t want to go. So I would go once a month or twice a month. And usually I would just be working in the weekend on my computer, making music or videos or whatever. And man, I would mix. It was really fun. I would be working on making a new video for YouTube and I work on it later. So I’m working at 1:00 AM. It’s so funny. Working After Effects, Premiere, whatever, or I was making music. And then my door opens because my roommate brought these friends home for the after party because after is a whole thing. You go to the club, but then people want to keep partying. Or maybe it was 4:00 AM. Anyway, they come in. And this guy comes in and he’s completely spaced out of his head on lots of drugs. He’s like, “Yo. What’s up? Can I just sit here? Because it’s 4:00 AM and I need to go work at 7:00. It’s too intense in the living room. Can I just sit next to you?” And I’m like, “Yeah.”
嗯，问题是，我总是被邀请参加聚会每周末或什么的，我不想去。所以我一个月去一两次。通常我只是在周末在电脑上工作，制作音乐或视频或其他东西。男人，我会混合。真的很好玩我将为YouTube制作一个新的视频，我以后会继续工作。所以我在凌晨一点工作。这太有趣了。工作后的影响，首映式，无论什么，或者我是做音乐。然后我的门开了，因为我的室友带这些朋友回家参加派对，因为派对是一个整体。你去俱乐部，但人们想继续狂欢。也许是凌晨4点。不管怎样，他们进来了。有个人进来了他磕了很多药完全神志不清了。他就像，“哟。你好吗？我能坐在这里吗？因为现在是凌晨4点我7点还要上班。在客厅里太紧张了。我能坐你旁边吗？“我说“是啊“
Pieter Levels (00:39:43):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So I’m just working and there’s this is guy on drugs sitting next to me. Normal guy, not a junkie, but just normal guy but on the drugs. And he’s like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “I’m just making music.” He’s like, “Whoa. Wow. You’re making music. So cool, man. Can I just listen?” And he takes the headphones and he’s just like, “Whoa.” And he just sits there for an hour, kind of cooling down and quite interested in what I’m doing. Yeah. And so these worlds kind of mixed even. So…
我正在工作，有个吸毒的家伙坐在我旁边。正常人，不是瘾君子，只是正常人，但吸毒了。他说“你在干什么”我说，“我只是在做音乐。“他就像，“哇。哇哦你在做音乐。太酷了，伙计。我能听听吗？“他拿着耳机，他就像，“哇。“他只是坐在那里一个小时，有点冷静下来，对我在做什么很感兴趣。是啊所以这些世界甚至是混合的。所以…
Ray Richards (00:40:13): 雷理查兹（00：40：13）：
Yeah. I think what you’re saying is that you… Well, maybe you’re not. I don’t know. You can correct me. You weren’t doing it for anyone else. You’re just doing it for yourself. You were not going with the flow because it didn’t work for you. And you wanted to find what works for you. And that may have inspired a few people and maybe it does today. But you were doing it for you.
是啊我觉得你的意思是…也许你不是我不知道你可以纠正我你不是为了别人你只是为了你自己。你没有随大流，因为它对你不起作用。你想找到适合你的方法。这可能激励了一些人，也许今天也是。但你是为了你自己。
Pieter Levels (00:40:37):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. Well, I knew where it was going to lead. I knew where this lifestyle was going to lead. It was going to lead to fucking nowhere. Because where does this stuff lead? Incidental psychedelic uses is good, but if you do it every week, it’s not going to lead to… You’re self-medicating some fucked up part of your life and it’s not going to lead to nowhere. So I had to escape this shit. And that’s what I did. And yeah.
是啊好吧，我知道它会导致什么。我知道这种生活方式会导致什么。他妈的，这将导致无处可去。因为这些东西会通向哪里？偶尔使用迷幻药是好的，但如果你每周都这样做，它不会导致…你在自我治疗你生活中的一些糟糕的部分，这不会导致任何地方。我不得不逃离这狗屎。我就是这么做的。没错
Ray Richards (00:41:00): 雷理查兹（00：41：00）：
And I guess you’ve continued to do that.
我想你一直都是这样。
Pieter Levels (00:41:04):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, it’s funny. I mean, radical honesty, you see a lot of drug users here too. You get invited to parties again with ketamine and stuff. And I’m like, “Sorry. I’m just not fucking into it. I don’t want to do it. It’s not my style. I’m not going to go to your party.” I’m not anti-drugs. This sounds like an anti-drug podcast. I’m not at all anti, but I’m against self-medicating a shitty life, which I think this podcast is about. It’s about doing life differently. And I’ve never talked about drugs so much on podcast, but it’s interesting, because all your questions, it has been kind of thing that I’ve been avoiding. [inaudible 00:41:44].
很有趣我的意思是，坦率地说，你在这里也看到很多吸毒者。你又被邀请去派对了，还有克他命什么的。我就说“抱歉我只是不想干。我不想干。这不是我的风格。我不去你的派对了。“我不是反毒品。这听起来像一个反毒品播客。我一点也不反对，但我反对自我治疗糟糕的生活，我认为这个播客就是关于这个的。是关于用不同的方式生活。我从来没有在播客上谈过这么多关于毒品的话题，但这很有趣，因为你们所有的问题，都是我一直在回避的问题。【听不见的声音】
Ray Richards (00:41:46): 雷理查兹（00：41：46）：
But it’s not drugs you’re avoiding. It’s going with the flow you’re avoiding for the sake of it. Going with the flow sometimes is absolutely fantastic, but if it’s not working for you and you’re just doing it because everybody else does it and you’re not thinking about it, you’re not understanding how it’s affecting you personally, you’re just doing it because everybody else does it, because you haven’t got your own mind, then it’s a problem.
但你不是在逃避毒品。它是你为了避免而随波逐流。随波逐流有时候绝对是很棒的，但是如果它对你不起作用，你只是因为别人都这么做而这么做，而你没有考虑它，你不明白它对你个人有什么影响，你只是因为别人都这么做而这么做，因为你没有自己的想法，那就有问题了
Pieter Levels (00:42:15):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. And it’s a much more friendly way also to say. You’re right. There’s much less judgemental ways. Just if it doesn’t work for you, don’t do it. Yeah. [inaudible 00:42:23].
是啊这也是一种更友好的方式来表达。你是对的少了很多评判的方式。如果对你不起作用，就别做。是的。[2019 - 01 - 19 00：00：00]
Ray Richards (00:42:22): 雷理查兹（00：42：22）：
And I think in life generally, forget drugs for the minute, but in life in general, we all to some extent or another go with the flow and don’t question whether it’s working for us. We go with the flow in the sense that we work for a company 9:00 to 5:00 or whatever and just do our job because everybody else, that’s what everybody else does. I don’t know. We go to watch the football every week because that’s what everybody around me does, or I go to parties, or I go bird watching because everybody around me does that. And…
我认为在生活中，暂时忘记毒品，但在生活中，我们都在某种程度上或另一种情况下随波逐流，不质疑它是否对我们有效。我们随大流，在某种意义上说，我们为一家公司工作，从9点到5点或任何时间，只是做我们的工作，因为其他人，这就是其他人做的事情。我不知道我们每周都去看足球，因为我周围的人都这么做，或者我去参加派对，或者我去观鸟，因为我周围的人都这么做。而且…
Pieter Levels (00:42:58):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. That’s fine. Yeah. 是啊没关系是啊
Ray Richards (00:42:59): 雷理查兹（00：42：59）：
And I think we just got to take… All of us. All of us need to every so often just sort of really question, “Is this actually working for me? Because I’m not the same necessarily as the people around me. Or in some instances I might be, because I like playing sport, but other instances, it just isn’t working for me.” And it’s hard because when you take a step out of your own comfort zone, you’re forcing other people to question things, because you’re not there and they want you to be there. They want you to be there because that’s what keeps it the same. And that’s…
我觉得我们应该…我们所有人我们所有人都需要时不时地问自己，“这对我有用吗？因为我和我周围的人不一定是一样的。或者在某些情况下，我可能是，因为我喜欢运动，但其他情况下，它只是不适合我。“这很难，因为当你走出自己的舒适区时，你迫使其他人质疑事情，因为你不在那里，他们希望你在那里。他们希望你在那里，因为这是什么保持不变。那是…
Pieter Levels (00:43:39):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
100%. That’s why lifestyle change is the hardest thing, because your environment dictates your lifestyle. And that’s why I think [inaudible 00:43:46] is [inaudible 00:43:46], because when you move locations, when you move to the other side of the world, it’s a great opportunity to… You can choose the people you want to be with. You can create your own kind of environment and you can completely change your lifestyle. And that’s what I did. And funny thing is you can even test different personalities kind and you can be in different cities. If you’re introvert, you can try being extrovert. Because who cares? You don’t know anybody here, that kind of stuff.
百分百确定这就是为什么改变生活方式是最困难的事情，因为你的环境决定了你的生活方式。这就是为什么我认为[听不见00：43：46]是[听不见00：43：46]，因为当你移动位置，当你移动到世界的另一边，这是一个很好的机会……你可以选择你想和谁在一起。你可以创造自己的环境，你可以完全改变你的生活方式。我就是这么做的。有趣的是，你甚至可以测试不同的性格，你可以在不同的城市。如果你是内向的人，你可以试着变得外向。因为谁在乎呢？你在这里谁都不认识，诸如此类。
Ray Richards (00:44:10): 雷理查兹（00：44：10）：
Absolutely. So we talked about this with Steph a couple of weeks ago, Steph Smith, who… I think you… Do you know Steph?
当然了几周前，我们和斯蒂芬·史密斯讨论过这个问题，他…我觉得你…你认识斯蒂芬吗？
Pieter Levels (00:44:17):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. She’s really cool. Yeah, yeah. My friend. Yeah. She’s my friend.
是啊她真的很酷。是啊是啊我的朋友是啊她是我的朋友
Ray Richards (00:44:18): 雷理查兹（00：44：18）：
Yeah. So we talked to her about this and she was talking about going to Sweden and as a student, her first sort of trip abroad. And the way Neil and I think about it is an opportunity to change, the best way to do it is to either go to a new place, meet new people or experiment with your personality. But when you go to a new place, you’re definitely… Well, first of all, you’re in a new place. Secondly, you’re going to meet new people and a different culture, but also it’s just such a brilliant opportunity to, as you say, if you’re normally introverted, experiment with being a bit extroverted, if you’re normally extrovert, experiment with being a bit introverted and just see how it fits for you, because it may be that the way you were behaving was just the way you were behaving because of the people around you. And it’s just-
是啊所以我们和她谈了这件事，她说要去瑞典，作为一个学生，她的第一次出国旅行。尼尔和我认为这是一个改变的机会，最好的方法是去一个新的地方，认识新的人，或者尝试你的个性。但当你到了一个新地方你肯定会…首先你在一个新地方其次，你会遇到新的人和不同的文化，但这也是一个绝佳的机会，正如你所说，如果你通常是内向的，尝试有点外向，如果你通常是外向的，尝试有点内向，看看它是否适合你，因为你的行为方式可能只是因为你周围的人。只是-
Pieter Levels (00:45:09):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. 100#%. 是啊百分之百。
Ray Richards (00:45:11): 雷理查兹（00：45：11）：
Such an opportunity. 这样的机会。
Pieter Levels (00:45:14):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I have a friend who’s gay and he came out as gay because he became a pilot and he was flying to different cities and he was always scared to explore himself and something in Holland, not because Holland is like Holland’s [inaudible 00:45:27], just because it’s his own kind of bubble. And he said because he could fly everywhere, he could explore this part of him and find out, “Okay. I’m gay.” And we’re like, “Okay. Cool. We don’t care that you’re gay. Nice.” But you know what I mean? It gives you a way to test different personalities.
我有一个同性恋朋友，他是同性恋，因为他成为了一名飞行员，他飞往不同的城市，他总是害怕探索自己和荷兰的东西，不是因为荷兰就像荷兰的[听不见00：45：27]，只是因为这是他自己的泡沫。他说，因为他可以飞到任何地方，他可以探索他的这一部分，并找出，“好吧，我是同嘞个同性“我们就像，“好吧。酷了我们不在乎你是同性恋。不错啊“你知道我的意思吗？它给了你一种测试不同性格的方法。
Ray Richards (00:45:50): 雷理查兹（00：45：50）：
I think it’s a license.
我觉得是个执照。
Pieter Levels (00:45:50):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
License. 执照
Ray Richards (00:45:53): 雷理查兹（00：45：53）：
It’s a license to behave differently.
这是一个许可证，以不同的行为。
Pieter Levels (00:45:56):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 是啊没错是啊
Ray Richards (00:45:58): 雷理查兹（00：45：58）：
Because when you are back home in Amsterdam and you’re, I don’t know, just assumed to be straight, everybody expects you to be straight and it’s more of a challenge because of those people around you and… Yeah.
因为当你回到阿姆斯特丹的家，你，我不知道，只是被认为是直的，每个人都希望你是直的，这是一个更大的挑战，因为你周围的人和.是啊
Pieter Levels (00:46:12):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. It’s also license to misbehave in Magaluf.
是啊这也是在马加鲁夫胡作非为的许可证。
Neil Witten (00:46:18): 尼尔维滕（00：46：18）：
I feel like you’re hiding something. You want to go to Magaluf, Pieter.
我觉得你有所隐瞒。你想去马盖鲁夫，彼得。
Ray Richards (00:46:22): 雷理查兹（00：46：22）：
He doesn’t. He doesn’t. I’m sure he doesn’t.
他没有他没有我肯定他不知道。
Pieter Levels (00:46:22):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My best friend is Daniel [inaudible 00:46:27]. He’s from… Where is he from? Somewhere in UK and he’s my server guy. And we always joke about Magaluf. Yeah. We always joke about these Britishisms.
是啊，是啊，是啊。我最好的朋友是丹尼尔。他来自…他是哪里人？在英国的某个地方，他是我的服务员。我们总是拿玛格鲁夫开玩笑是啊我们总是拿这些英国人开玩笑。
Neil Witten (00:46:38): 尼尔维滕（00：46：38）：
So let’s go back to your YouTube channel, because it didn’t start and stop there. So you went off, start exploring. Wasn’t a plan, but you were looking for something else. Can you remember what you were looking for and then how it started to play out into the next evolution of you?
所以让我们回到你的YouTube频道，因为它没有开始和停止。所以你离开了，开始探索。不是计划，但你在寻找别的东西。你还记得你在寻找什么，然后它是如何开始进入你的下一个进化的吗？
Pieter Levels (00:46:58):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. So I remember dating a Russian girl back then also. And I knew her from Twitter, from the drummer bass scene. She was a big drummer bass manager. And I was booking artists for this YouTube channel. And I would always talk to her. Really cool girl, Anna. And then really cute. So I flew to St. Petersburg. And I remember bringing my laptop also then. This was 2012, so before Nomad. And I was there for only a few weeks, I think. It was really fucking cold. It was minus 40 or something. And I was working back then on a YouTube… I was learning to code a little bit. I was working on a YouTube analytics platform. It was called Bear Stats, like a teddy bear and then stat. It was stupid. And I remember coding on that.
是啊我记得当时也和一个俄罗斯女孩约会过。我在推特上认识她，在鼓手贝司的现场。她是个很棒的鼓手贝斯手。我在为这个YouTube频道预约艺人。我经常和她聊天。很酷的女孩，安娜。然后真的很可爱所以我飞到了彼得堡。我记得当时我也带了笔记本电脑。这是2012年，在游牧之前。我在那里只呆了几个星期，我想。真他妈的冷。零下40度左右。我当时在YouTube上工作…我在学编程。我在做一个YouTube分析平台。它被称为熊统计，就像一个泰迪熊，然后统计。太蠢了我记得我在编码。
Pieter Levels (00:47:49):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
And I was telling her, “If this works, I can make money with it and it’s extra income next to YouTube.” And it never worked. But that became one of my first products where I was coding something. And I was coding it because I needed it, because I had all these different YouTube channels and they all had a different login, username, password. And they all had a different analytics dashboard. And I had no idea how to sum all this data into one and see how much fuse I was getting and how much money I was making and stuff. And there was a lot of these YouTube networks back then. So I was like, “This could be useful thing.” So I tried to solve a problem for myself and that became this analytics app that nobody… Well, nobody paid for it, but Vice Network used it even. Some big brands used it, but nobody paid for it, because I was not good at startups like that-
我告诉她，“如果这个成功了，我可以用它赚钱，这是仅次于YouTube的额外收入。”它从来没有工作。但这成为我第一个产品之一，我在那里编码的东西。我写代码是因为我需要它，因为我有所有这些不同的YouTube频道，他们都有不同的登录名，用户名，密码。他们都有不同的分析仪表板。我不知道如何把所有这些数据加起来，看看我得到了多少保险丝，赚了多少钱。当时有很多这样的YouTube网络。所以我想，“这可能是有用的东西。“所以我试图为自己解决一个问题，这成为这个分析应用程序，没有人…没人付钱但Vice Network甚至用过一些大品牌使用它，但没有人支付它，因为我不擅长这样的初创公司-
Neil Witten (00:48:40): 尼尔维滕（00：48：40）：
But you’d studied business and still in the back of your mind, you’re going, “I want to break the system, but I want to hack the system.” So you’re looking for something that looks a bit like a business. So how were you thinking about that? Were you thinking about that as work? Were you thinking about that as…
但是你学过商业，在你的脑海里，你仍然会说，“我想打破这个系统，但我想黑进这个系统。“所以你在寻找一个看起来有点像企业的东西。你是怎么想的你把这当成工作了吗你是不是觉得…
Pieter Levels (00:49:00):
Pieter Levels（00：49：00）：
Yeah. So I think business is very different from entrepreneurship. Big business managers, suits, offices, corporate. When it reaches $1 billion, completely different. That’s gets into the gray area, gray territory for me. Entrepreneurship feels like art. It feels the same as creativity, feels the same as Photoshop, After Effects, as painting, as skateboarding. It’s fun. Entrepreneurship is just… It’s so free and fun and not structured and do whatever. The bigger the company becomes, the more legal stuff, the more structured, the more organization, the more hiring, it becomes by definition rigid and boring. And there’s exceptions. I think SpaceX is huge. They’re going to Mars. Of course, that’s not a boring company. And Tesla is also cool. But generally, big companies are… Everything needs four meetings and five-
是啊所以我认为商业和创业是非常不同的。大企业经理，西装革履，办公室，公司。当它达到10亿美元时，完全不同。对我来说，这是一个灰色地带。创业就像艺术，就像创造力，就像Photoshop，After Effects，就像绘画，就像滑板。开心体验好使企业家精神只是…它是如此自由和有趣，而不是结构化的，做什么。公司越大，法律的东西越多，结构越严密，组织越严密，招聘越多，从定义上讲，它变得僵化和无聊。当然也有例外。我认为SpaceX是巨大的。他们要去火星。当然，这不是一个无聊的公司。Tesla也很酷。但一般来说，大公司都…一切都需要四次会议和五次-
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:50:04]
第二部分4结束[00：50：04]
Pieter Levels (00:50:03):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Everything needs four meetings, and five lawyers, and legal sign off, and blah, blah, blah, and PO sheet, and bullshit. And I just write some code, and it’s already there within five seconds.
所有的事都需要开四次会，五个律师，还有法律的签字，还有采购单，还有废话。我写了一些代码，它在五秒钟内就已经出现了。
Ray Richards (00:50:11):
I think it’s the difference between building something and maintaining something, if you can break it down. And you are not, and I’m not, and Neil’s probably not either, that interested in maintaining stuff. To a certain degree, maintaining things makes things less stressful. But if you’re spending all your time, maintaining stuff and not creating anything new, it can become very dull for people like-
我认为这就是建造和维护的区别，如果你能把它分解的话。你不是，我不是，尼尔可能也不是，对维护东西感兴趣。在某种程度上，保持事物使事情不那么紧张。但是如果你把所有的时间都花在维护东西上，而不是创造新的东西，这对像这样的人来说会变得非常无聊-
Neil Witten (00:50:39): 尼尔维滕（00：50：39）：
It’s a really good point, Ray. Because I’ve heard Pieter, you talk about your robots before. And I’ve noticed that when you talk about them, you talk about them not just in a playful way, but it’s more than symbolic, the way you describe your robots. And you talk about the robots that are working for you, because they’re so efficient and they’re so effective, and you love your robots. But on the whole, I think you don’t have people working for you, but many people who are in your position or would have-
你说得很有道理雷因为我听彼得说过，你以前说过机器人。我注意到，当你谈论它们的时候，你谈论它们的方式不仅仅是开玩笑的，而且不仅仅是象征性的，你描述你的机器人的方式。你谈到为你工作的机器人，因为它们是如此高效，如此有效，你爱你的机器人。但总的来说，我认为你没有人为你工作，但许多人谁是在你的位置或会-
Pieter Levels (00:51:08):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
For some- 对某些人来说-
Neil Witten (00:51:09): 尼尔维滕（00：51：09）：
But maybe you haven’t shaped it up into a traditional company, in the way that a lot people might have done.
但也许你还没有把它塑造成一个传统的公司，就像很多人可能做的那样。
Pieter Levels (00:51:16):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. I still do everything myself. I code everything. I design everything. I have a chat moderator for the community. I have a server guy. Only if the server goes down, he gets on, it never goes down. And customer support person, because I can’t do that.
是啊我还是什么都自己做。我编码一切。我设计一切。我有一个社区的聊天主持人。我有一个服务器的家伙。只有当服务器坏了，他才能继续，服务器永远不会坏。以及客服人员，因为我做不到。
Neil Witten (00:51:30): 尼尔维滕（00：51：30）：
So to raise point about maintaining, so anything that has value requires some amount of maintenance. And I guess the more value that it creates, it’s possible that, the more maintenance it requires. And that maintenance pushes you into a mode that is, moving you further and further away from creativity. But it seems like what you’ve managed to do, certainly more recently. It’d be interesting to know whether you’ve done this consciously or unconsciously, is get to a position where the maintenance side of things is so automated, is so invisible to you, that it allows you to show up creatively.
所以要提出维护的观点，任何有价值的东西都需要一定的维护。我想它创造的价值越多，可能需要的维护也就越多。这种维持会把你推向一种模式，也就是说，让你越来越远离创造力。但看起来你最近做的事情。这将是很有趣的，知道你是否有意识或无意识地这样做，是到一个位置，维护方面的事情是如此自动化，是如此无形的你，它允许你表现出创造性。
Pieter Levels (00:52:05):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Man, you’re so good at these questions. Yes, that’s exactly it. It surprised me too. Generally, reached a point the last year, where there’s so few bugs. Because every single bug gets reported to me by the robot in telegram, in a chats app, a PHP bug or a JavaScript bug. If you open my website and there’s a JavaScript bug, it sends it to the server and it comes to me immediately. There’s so little bugs now, there’s one bug a week or something. And it’s some JavaScript, whatever.
伙计，你对这些问题太在行了。是的，就是这样。我也很惊讶。一般来说，去年达到了一个点，那里有这么少的错误。因为每一个bug都是机器人通过电报、聊天应用程序、PHP bug或JavaScript bug报告给我的。如果你打开我的网站，发现有一个JavaScript错误，它会把它发送到服务器，然后它会立即给我。现在虫子太少了，一周只一只。它是一些JavaScript，随便什么。
Pieter Levels (00:52:39):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So usually people say, you need to maintain, and I think because their technology stack is so difficult and complicated. And technology keeps changing, these frameworks keep changing, like React few, Laravel, whatever, they’re always changing. My code is all Vanilla, JavaScript Vanilla, PHP Vanilla, CSS, everything is vanilla. So is more simple than you think. And it’s now quite keen as well, the code. Which surprised me that, because there’s not a lot of dependencies to update, things generally don’t really break anymore.
所以通常人们会说，你需要维护，我认为因为他们的技术堆栈是如此困难和复杂。技术在不断变化，这些框架也在不断变化，比如React few、Laravel等等，它们总是在变化。我的代码都是香草，JavaScript香草，PHP香草，CSS，一切都是香草。比你想象的要简单。它现在也很敏锐，代码。这让我很惊讶，因为没有太多的依赖项需要更新，所以事情通常不会再发生变化。
Ray Richards (00:53:15): 雷理查兹（00：53：15）：
Yeah. I’m imagining when you do and there is a bug, maybe one a week. That’s the creative process, trying to fix that.
是啊我在想象当你这样做的时候，会有一个bug，也许一周一个。这就是创造性的过程，试图解决这个问题。
Pieter Levels (00:53:24):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
But the bugs take like two minutes to fix now.
但现在要花两分钟才能修好。
Ray Richards (00:53:28): 雷理查兹（00：53：28）：
Oh, right. But in creating those maintenance systems, that’s a creative process, right?
哦对但在创建这些维护系统时，这是一个创造性的过程，对吗？
Pieter Levels (00:53:40):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
There isn’t really a maintenance system. It’s more, if you write really clean codes, it generally keeps running. If it’s not dependent on a lot of other frameworks or services, the more self-contained you create codes, the less moving parts. The less moving parts in a system, the less it will break.
没有真正的维护系统。更重要的是，如果你写了非常干净的代码，它通常会继续运行。如果它不依赖于许多其他框架或服务，那么您创建的代码越自包含，移动部分就越少。系统中的活动部件越少，系统就越不会崩溃。
Ray Richards (00:53:59): 雷理查兹（00：53：59）：
So for you, what is creativity? What’s the creative part of what of your life?
对你来说，什么是创造力？你的生活中什么是创造性的部分？
Pieter Levels (00:54:07):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Making new stuff. So I make new products. I made inflationcharts.com, to track inflation because the government data is inaccurate, I think. I’m creating Rebase now, which is the first immigration as a service startup. So I’ve helped now over 500 people immigrate to Portugal from anywhere, from UK, from Holland, from Venezuela, from Syria, everybody’s moving to Portugal. So that’s stuff that’s interesting.
做些新东西。所以我制造新产品。我做了inflationcharts.com，跟踪通货膨胀，因为政府的数据是不准确的，我认为。我现在正在创建Rebase，这是第一个移民服务创业公司。所以我现在已经帮助了500多人从任何地方移民到葡萄牙，从英国，从荷兰，从委内瑞拉，从叙利亚，每个人都搬到葡萄牙。所以这是很有趣的事情。
Ray Richards (00:54:35):
And let’s just take that as an example. Why did you do that?
Pieter Levels (00:54:46):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Similar to slowmads, the trajectory of a nomad is fast travel in the beginning, go everywhere, go crazy, then slow down. And then I realize, “Oh, I do need a residency. I need to have a personal residency somewhere, a tax residency. I need to pay tax somewhere. And it’s not going to be my home country, I’m not going to go back to my home country probably. So where should I live? Well, Portugal is 25 Celsius. It’s nice, it’s affordable. Nice people, very foreign friendly, they’re trying to attract foreigners.” So that became a thing. And I’m also Portuguese now, that’s the introductory for a nomad.
与慢性子类似，游牧者的轨迹是一开始的快速旅行，到处去，疯狂，然后慢下来。然后我意识到，“哦，我确实需要一个住院医师。我需要在某个地方有个人居住权，一个税务居住权。我需要在某个地方缴税。这不会是我的祖国，我可能不会回到我的祖国。那我该住哪葡萄牙是25摄氏度。很好，价格也实惠。很好的人，非常外国友好，他们试图吸引外国人。“所以这成了一件事。我现在也是葡萄牙人了，这是对游牧民族的介绍。
Ray Richards (00:55:30): 雷理查兹（00：55：30）：
Okay. You just did it because you saw a problem in the inefficiency of the existing system, or because you wanted to help nomads, or?
好吧你这么做是因为你看到了现有系统效率低下的问题，还是因为你想帮助游牧民族，还是？
Pieter Levels (00:55:44):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It happened during COVID. I went to Portugal myself, and I saw it on nomad list on my website, that tracks all the cities for nomads. That it was really high ranking, it was a lot of people moving there. Because Asia was closed, so Europe was booming and Portugal was booming, because it’s much more affordable than Spain, for example. So a lot of people were in Lisbon, and I started meeting people there and living there, and talking to people. And everybody was talking about… I’m like, “Oh, you’re just visiting here for a few months.” They’re like, “No, I actually registered now. I became resident.” A lot of people just before Brexits, they all registered in Portugal to become Portuguese, so they could get [inaudible 00:56:22] and stuff. So I was like, “Okay.”
它发生在COVID期间。我自己去过葡萄牙，我在我的网站上的流浪者名单上看到了它，它追踪了所有流浪者的城市。它的排名很高，有很多人搬到那里。因为亚洲是封闭的，所以欧洲繁荣了，葡萄牙繁荣了，因为它比西班牙便宜得多。所以很多人都在里斯本，我开始在那里认识人们，住在那里，和人们交谈。所有人都在谈论…我说，“哦，你只是来这里住几个月。“他们说，“不，我实际上已经注册了。我成了居民。“就在英国脱欧之前，很多人都在葡萄牙注册成为葡萄牙人，这样他们就可以得到[听不见00：56：22]之类的东西。所以我说“好吧“
Pieter Levels (00:56:24):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
And everybody was talking about that. And then I tried it, it was really easy. And then I kept getting friends asking me about, “Can you tell me who’s your lawyer, your immigration advisor? I need one to do the same thing.” It’s like 20 people messaging me over a month or something. So I was like, “Okay, maybe this is a business.” And I asked a referral fee, and I made a little landing page, and that became a business in this span of a year.
所有人都在谈论这个。然后我试了一下，真的很简单。然后我不断有朋友问我，“你能告诉我谁是你的律师，你的移民顾问吗？我需要一个人来做同样的事情。“这就像20个人在一个月内给我发信息。所以我想，“好吧，也许这是一个生意。“我要求一个推荐费，我做了一个小的着陆页，这成为一个业务在这一年的跨度。
Neil Witten (00:56:52): 尼尔维滕（00：56：52）：
I’m going to push a bit harder, Pieter, because there’s something more here I think. Lots of other people who are in your position and at this time in your life, you had several online businesses that are making more than enough money. You are still slowmading. You’ve got a great network of people. You can do anything or nothing next, is my perception. So I might be wrong, but tell me if I am. You saw a problem, but I’m guessing you see lots of problems, but you decided to turn it into a business, that’s the bit that’s interesting. So you could help all of these people, because you could say, “Here’s the details of the immigration lawyer.” Or you could just give them a bit of information, or you could stick a blog post up. But you turned it into a business, “Or something that starts to represent a business.” Why? What was going on in your head? What were you tapping into with that?
我要再用力一点，彼得，因为我想这里还有别的东西。很多其他人谁是在你的位置，在这个时候在你的生活中，你有几个在线业务，赚了足够多的钱。你还在磨蹭。你有一个很好的人际网络。你可以做任何事情或什么都不做，这是我的看法。所以我可能错了，如果我错了请告诉我。你看到了一个问题，但我猜你看到了很多问题，但你决定把它变成一个企业，这是有趣的一点。所以你可以帮助所有这些人，因为你可以说，“这是移民律师的细节。“或者你可以给予他们一点信息，或者你可以贴一篇博客文章。但你把它变成了一个企业，“或者说开始代表一个企业的东西。“为什么会这样？你脑子里在想什么？你在用那个窃听什么？
Pieter Levels (00:57:57):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, good question. 好问题
Neil Witten (00:58:00): 尼尔维滕（00：58：00）：
And I only say it, because most other people in your position wouldn’t have done. And it might be that on the surface, because they were too lazy to do it.
我这么说，是因为大多数处在你这种位置的人不会这么做。表面上可能是这样，因为他们懒得这么做。
Ray Richards (00:58:09): 雷理查兹（00：58：09）：
Or they might have had the idea. They may have thought this is a possible business, but they wouldn’t have done it.
或者他们可能有这个想法。他们可能认为这是一个可能的业务，但他们不会这样做。
Pieter Levels (00:58:20):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Sasha, the German friend, who told me about all this stuff in the beginning, when I met him in Lisbon. And he was like, “I wanted to do this business too.” And I was like, “Oh, really?” But he’s like, “I never really did it.” I’m like, “Okay.” So, that’s exactly what you said. Well, I tested a lot of stuff. I tried new things. Like this inflation chart for example, is not a business but it’s fun. I tried different parts to see if they stick, and I still do that. Same time last year during COVID, I made QRmenucreator.com. Because I was in Portugal and I saw QR codes everywhere as a menu thing, and now it’s really common, back then not so much. So I made a side where you can make your own QR code menu and stuff. And now thousands of restaurants use it, and hundreds of thousands of people use every day, but doesn’t make money. But the question, why do I… Because otherwise I get bored, so I want to do something that’s challenging.
萨沙，那个德国朋友，一开始我在里斯本遇到他的时候，他告诉了我这些事情。他说，“我也想做这个生意。“我就说，“哦，真的吗？“但他说，“我从来没有真正做到这一点。“我说“好吧“原来你是这么说的。我测试了很多东西。我尝试了新事物。就像这个通货膨胀图表，不是一个业务，但它的乐趣。我试过不同的部分，看看他们是否坚持，我仍然这样做。去年新冠肺炎期间的同一时间，我创建了QRmenucreator.com。因为我在葡萄牙，我看到QR码到处都是作为一个菜单的东西，现在它真的很常见，当时没有那么多。所以我做了一个侧面，你可以制作自己的二维码菜单和东西。现在成千上万的餐馆使用它，每天有几十万人使用它，但不赚钱。但问题是，为什么我…否则我会觉得无聊，所以我想做一些有挑战性的事情。
Neil Witten (00:59:25): 尼尔维滕（00：59：25）：
So just again, trying to get under the surface a bit more here, and also filling in some of the gaps of the story. So part of your evolution, was you did the 12 startups in 12 months. And I’m guessing that at that time, that it was quite premeditated. But it would partly to find something, and partly to finish your skills, and partly to generate PR. So it’s a creative play, but that has lots of positive outcomes. And knowing what I know of you, since that time, you’ve found a handful of things that have become very successful, and you continue to ship. So you use that language a lot. And again, just for our listeners, by ship you mean deliver new, enhance, develop, create.
所以再一次，试着在这里深入一点，同时也填补了这个故事的一些空白。所以你进化的一部分，是你在12个月内做了12家创业公司。我想在那个时候，这是有预谋的。但这部分是为了找到一些东西，部分是为了完成你的技能，部分是为了产生公关。所以这是一个创造性的发挥，但有很多积极的结果。据我对你的了解，从那时起，你发现了一些非常成功的事情，你继续出货。你经常用这种语言。再一次，只是为了我们的听众，通过船舶你的意思是提供新的，增强，发展，创造。
Neil Witten (01:00:15): 尼尔维滕（01：00：15）：
And don’t just make it, but make it and deliver it to people, make sure that people get values from it. But you do that consistently. And again, this is one of the things that lots of people talk to you about and you write about a lot, the importance of showing up and consistency. But do you think that, so ingrained now that, that’s what you do when you see something that potentially could be a problem? That you’re just there, you’re just showing up and that’s part of the consistency, and part of the ingrained behaviors now.
不要只是制造它，而是制造它并把它传递给人们，确保人们从中获得价值。但你要始终如一地这样做。再说一次，这是很多人和你谈论的事情之一，你写了很多，表现和一致性的重要性。但你认为，现在如此根深蒂固，这就是你做什么，当你看到的东西，可能是一个问题？你只是在那里，你只是出现，这是一致性的一部分，现在根深蒂固的行为的一部分。
Pieter Levels (01:00:49):
Pieter Levels（01：00：49）：
Yeah, I think so. I think that’s exactly it. If you do something so much… Like in the beginning, it was because you need to make money, otherwise you starve. So I was trying to find stuff that made money and became started. But now of course there’s enough money, so it’s not really about money anymore. It’s still nice if the money increases, if your revenue increases. I look at the numbers, it’s important that it increases, but-
我想是的我想就是这样。如果你做了那么多…就像一开始，这是因为你需要赚钱，否则你会挨饿。所以我试图找到赚钱的东西，并开始。但是现在当然有足够的钱，所以这不再是钱的问题了。如果钱增加了，如果你的收入增加了，那还是很好的。我看着数字，它的增长是很重要的，但是-
Ray Richards (01:01:17): 雷理查兹：
Is that because it’s a game, money is points?
是因为这是个游戏，钱就是点数吗？
Pieter Levels (01:01:23):
Pieter Levels（01：01：23）：
But this is so bad to say, because money it’s also the reason why people struggle. Money is the reason I wanted to escape this system. I don’t like that you’re born in debt as a human. Which is not clear true, because if you’re born as an animal, you might get eaten. So we have society where we don’t eat each other and fight each other, and it means that you need to go to the job, and make money, and pay rent. That’s the agreement we have. Although, you don’t agree to on that when you’re born, but okay. I lost my train of thought. I don’t know.
但这是如此糟糕的说法，因为金钱也是人们奋斗的原因。钱是我想逃离这个系统的原因。我不喜欢你作为一个人生来就负债。但这并不完全正确，因为如果你生下来就是动物，你可能会被吃掉。所以我们有一个社会，在那里我们不吃对方，不打对方，这意味着你需要去工作，赚钱，付房租。这是我们的协议。虽然你不同意在你出生的时候，但好吧。我失去了我的思路。我不知道
Neil Witten (01:02:06): 尼尔维滕（01：02：06）：
Let’s just come back to the question. So there’s still a reason why you saw the problem with Rebase, and then took it on. And it’s cool, I can see the creative part of you and the trained part of you, is going, “This is fun. I’m just going to enter into this, and it’s going to create value for other people. And I get to deploy all the skills that I enjoy using, which are creative skills.” But there comes a point with it, where it becomes annoying. Or for lots of other people, it could get to a point where it becomes annoying, because it’s more stuff. There’re more things going on, there’re more questions to answer.
我们还是回到问题上来吧。所以你看到Rebase的问题，然后接受它，这是有原因的。很酷，我可以看到你的创造力和训练有素的一部分，是去，“这很有趣。我只是要进入这个领域，它将为其他人创造价值。我可以运用所有我喜欢使用的技能，这些都是创造性的技能。“但是有一点，它变得令人讨厌。或者对其他很多人来说，它可能会变得很烦人，因为它有更多的东西。有更多的事情发生，有更多的问题要回答。
Pieter Levels (01:02:43):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah. So I think that’s to do with the automation, because now my main projects are running smoothly and I need some new stuff to do. Because what, I just sit in my room, or go to cafe and just drink coffee and sit. I can talk to my friend, I do that already. My dad always says, when we sit in the kitchen, we drink coffee after one hour of talking, he’s like, “Okay. Now enough talking, let’s go do something.” He doesn’t want to just sit, he wants to do something. And he’s always working on renovating the house and doing construction and stuff, really fun dad. But yeah, I need something to do. And I think there’s also this… Yeah?
是啊所以我认为这与自动化有关，因为现在我的主要项目运行顺利，我需要一些新的东西来做。因为什么，我只是坐在我的房间里，或者去咖啡馆喝咖啡，坐着。我可以和我的朋友说话，我已经这样做了。我爸爸总是说，当我们坐在厨房里，我们在一个小时的谈话后喝咖啡，他说，“好吧。别说了，我们去做点什么吧。“他不想只是坐着，他想做点什么。他总是在装修房子，做建筑和东西，真的很有趣的爸爸。但我确实需要找点事做。我觉得还有这个… - 是吗？
Ray Richards (01:03:29): 雷理查兹（01：03：29）：
Well, I was just about to say, I think as somebody that has been always doing stuff and has recently tried to chill more-
嗯，我正要说，我认为作为一个一直在做事情的人，最近试图更冷静-
Pieter Levels (01:03:48):
Pieter Levels（01：03：48）：
Yeah, me too. 是啊我也是
Ray Richards (01:03:49): 雷理查兹（01：03：49）：
Because I think it’s okay if you’re always doing stuff, because you really enjoy what you’re doing, then that’s different. But if you’re doing stuff because you want to get somewhere all the time-
因为我认为如果你总是做一些事情是可以的，因为你真的很享受你所做的事情，那就不一样了。但如果你做事是因为你想一直到达某个地方
Pieter Levels (01:04:05):
Pieter Levels（01：04：05）：
No, that’s just drugs. It’s the same as drugs.
不，那只是毒品。就像毒品一样。
Ray Richards (01:04:10): 雷理查兹（01：04：10）：
Exactly what I was going to say.
我正想这么说呢。
Pieter Levels (01:04:13):
Pieter Levels（01：04：13）：
I agree. I don’t think that’s it for me anymore, because I do chill more, I work way less. But I’m not workaholic anymore, but I’ve definitely been in the past for sure, for years.
我同意.我不认为这对我来说已经是过去了，因为我确实更冷静了，我工作的时间更少了。但我不再是工作狂了，但我肯定已经过去了很多年。
Ray Richards (01:04:25): 雷理查兹（01：04：25）：
Yeah. And I think it’s back to that conversation we had earlier about balance. If you’re just chilling all the time, it’s a problem. If you’re on it all the time, and you’re striving all the time, that’s a problem. And as with anything in life, it’s is about finding the balance and noticing, what it is that you are doing. You’re just doing all the time, for the sake of it. You’re going with the flow. You’re going with your habit, just because that’s what you do. And you’re not ever questioning, what it is you’re doing. It’s good to look at the… If you’re always an extrovert, have a play with being an introvert. If you’re always taking risks, have a play with playing it safe. If you’re always doing things spontaneously, maybe start looking at planning things.
是啊我想这又回到了我们之前关于平衡的谈话。如果你只是一直在打冷颤，这是一个问题。如果你一直在努力，那就有问题了。就像生活中的任何事情一样，这是关于找到平衡并注意到你在做什么。你只是一直在做，为了它。你在随波逐流。你只是习惯性的，因为这是你的习惯。你从来没有质疑过，你在做什么。很高兴看到…如果你一直是个外向的人，那就试着做一个内向的人。如果你总是在冒险，那就玩个安全游戏吧。如果你总是自发地做事情，也许开始考虑计划事情。
Pieter Levels (01:05:15):
I figure you’re right. And the irony of entrepreneurs is like, “Oh, I don’t want to get a normal job, let’s build a company.” And then they end up in some rat race again, because they’re nonstop working, is bullshit. The point of entrepreneurship was, we’re going to do our own thing, do something cool. And we’ll have a little bit more time for our own life, than going to office.
我想你是对的。对创业者来说，讽刺的是，“哦，我不想做一份普通的工作，让我们建立一家公司吧。“然后他们又陷入了激烈的竞争，因为他们不停地工作，这是胡说八道。创业的意义在于，我们要做自己的事情，做一些很酷的事情。我们会有更多的时间享受自己的生活，而不是去办公室。
Ray Richards (01:05:34): 雷理查兹（01：05：34）：
Yeah. And you forget why you did it in the first place.
是啊你忘了当初为什么这么做。
Pieter Levels (01:05:38):
Pieter Levels（01：05：38）：
Yeah, 100%. I think you’re never in balance, but relatively balanced now, I can focus on the new projects and it’s quite chill now.
是的，百分之百。我认为你永远不会平衡，但现在相对平衡，我可以专注于新的项目，现在很冷。
Neil Witten (01:05:57): 尼尔维滕（01：05：57）：
Is there a different approach to with Rebase? I noticed some time ago, I think that you turned off new applications, because there was so much interest that you turned it off for a period of time. I’m wondering that, have you just reached a level of how you apply yourself to a challenge, like Rebase? Where you’re doing it for others, but you’re also doing it for you. So maybe a version of you 10 years ago, where you’d stumbled across Rebase. Wouldn’t have switched off the application process and instead, stayed up two nights in a row and worked really hard and taken on all that extra stress to get through it?
是否有不同的方法来使用Rebase？我注意到前一段时间，我认为你关闭了新的应用程序，因为有太多的兴趣，你关闭了一段时间。我想知道，你是否刚刚达到了一个水平，你如何申请自己的挑战，如Rebase？你在为别人做这件事，但你也在为你自己做这件事。所以也许是10年前的你，在那里你偶然发现了Rebase。你不会关掉申请程序，而是连续两个晚上熬夜，努力工作，承受所有额外的压力来完成申请吗？
Pieter Levels (01:06:39):
Pieter Levels（01：06：39）：
Well, Neil the funny thing is, I don’t do anything with the applications. It’s not a law agency, it’s a referral directory for lawyers.
好吧，尼尔有趣的是，我不做任何申请。这不是一个法律代理，这是一个律师推荐目录。
Neil Witten (01:06:50): 尼尔维滕（01：06：50）：
So you didn’t turn it off for yourself, it was because other people were getting.
所以你不是为了自己，而是因为其他人。
Pieter Levels (01:06:55):
Pieter Levels（01：06：55）：
I have a giant capacity problem with the immigration advisors. So the immigration advisor helped me also move… Well, that’s not true. It helped a lot of my friends move to Portugal. And then I did Rebase, and their clientele number went up from, I think 30 a month to 300 or 400 a month. So 10X, it’s insane. And the immigration advisor is close to burnout, because he’s doing calls all day. It’s funny, but it’s also sad, but they’re making a lot of money now. They’re making, I think close to million or something, or more from all these applications. I just make a hundred dollars per application, and then I pass them on to them, and then they do all the other stuff. So the a hundred dollar is like a commission. So I don’t do anything. I’m slowly automating the steps of the immigration process, that’s what I’m doing.
我和移民顾问之间有很大的问题。所以移民顾问也帮我搬家了…不是这样的它帮助我的很多朋友搬到了葡萄牙。然后我做了Rebase，他们的客户数量从，我想每月30个上升到每月300或400个。10X，这是疯狂的。移民顾问也快累死了，因为他整天都在打电话。这很有趣，但也很可悲，但他们现在赚了很多钱。他们正在做，我认为接近百万或更多，或更多从所有这些应用程序。我只是每个应用程序100美元，然后我把它们交给他们，然后他们做所有其他的事情。所以这一百块钱就像是佣金。所以我什么都不做。我正在慢慢地使移民程序自动化，这就是我正在做的。
Pieter Levels (01:07:53):
Pieter Levels（01：07：53）：
So I’m trying to make them have less work, and I’m moving further into the immigration processes, like signing all these forms. I’m now learning how to pre-fill a PDF from the Portuguese government, with the data from my database, signing it, and then sending it to the Portuguese government. That’s a step you can automate, that was before took weeks. So that kind of stuff is fun to automate. And that’s what I do, and it’s all asynchronous. So, I never need to do a meeting. I never did a call with these immigration advisors, it’s always over telegram. Because I told them I don’t want to do calls, it’s just calls are always chit chat and nothing fucking happens. Text is, “Okay, there’s a specific problem with this form, we need to fix.” “Okay, I’ll fix the form.”
所以我试着让他们少做些工作，我正在进一步进入移民程序，比如签署所有这些表格。我现在正在学习如何从葡萄牙政府那里预先填写一份PDF文件，使用我的数据库中的数据，签署它，然后将其发送给葡萄牙政府。这是一个可以自动化的步骤，以前需要几个星期。所以这种东西自动化很有趣。这就是我所做的，而且都是异步的。所以，我从来不需要开会。我从来没有和这些移民顾问打过电话，都是通过电报。因为我告诉他们我不想接电话，只是电话总是闲聊，什么也没发生。文本是，“好的，这个表单有一个特定的问题，我们需要修复。”“好的，我会修改表格的。“
Ray Richards (01:08:46): 雷理查兹（01：08：46）：
Can I ask you a question, going back to a conversation around what I call behavioral flexibility, this [inaudible 01:08:54]? What do you think is your challenge at the moment, in terms of… Where are you testing your comfort zone, or where do you think you should be testing your comfort zone? Where do you think you could benefit from exploring a different part of your personality?
我能问你一个问题吗？回到一个关于我所说的行为灵活性的对话，这个[听不见01：08：54]？你认为你目前面临的挑战是什么，就…你在哪里测试你的舒适区，或者你认为你应该在哪里测试你的舒适区？你认为你可以从探索你个性的不同部分中受益吗？
Pieter Levels (01:09:19):
Pieter Levels（01：09：19）：
So this is funny, because me and my friends we’ve worked really hard. I work a lot with Andre, and Neil knows Andre, from Sheet2Site.
所以这很有趣，因为我和我的朋友们我们真的很努力。我经常和安德烈一起工作，尼尔认识安德烈，从Sheet 2Site。
Neil Witten (01:09:26): 尼尔维滕（01：09：26）：
Sheet2Site, yeah. Sheet 2Site是的
Pieter Levels (01:09:28):
Pieter Levels（01：09：28）：
Its public info, right? That you-
公共信息，对吧？你-
Neil Witten (01:09:30): 尼尔维滕（01：09：30）：
Yeah, he is. I love Andre, great guy.
是的，他是。我爱安德烈，好人。
Pieter Levels (01:09:33):
Pieter Levels（01：09：33）：
Yeah. Andre’s amazing guy, he’s my best friend. And meet him almost every day, we go to cafe and we drink coffee, and he works really hard. And he works in new projects now. And I’ve been trying to slowly work less, as Ray said, and do more IRL stuff. Like I went climbing this week. Bouldering was really fun. And that sounds really stupid, because why would real life be a challenge? Well, it’s a challenge for a workaholic person, to go do stuff out of your comfort zone, where you could fall down four meters break your back. But you need to do those things, and I’m trying to do those things more. Sorry, it’s not an interesting answer, but-
是啊安德烈是个很棒的人他是我最好的朋友几乎每天都能见到他，我们去咖啡馆喝咖啡，他工作很努力。他现在在新项目工作。我一直在努力慢慢地少工作，就像雷说的，做更多的IRL的事情。就像我这周去爬山一样。抱石真的很有趣。这听起来真的很愚蠢，因为为什么现实生活是一个挑战？这对一个工作狂来说是一个挑战，要走出你的舒适区去做一些事情，你可能会从四米高处摔下来摔断你的背。但你需要做这些事情，我正努力做更多的事情。抱歉，这个答案不怎么有趣，但是-
Neil Witten (01:10:23): 尼尔维滕（01：10：23）：
There might be more in the IRL.
在IRL可能会有更多。
Ray Richards (01:10:27): 雷理查兹（01：10：27）：
You explain to me what IRL stands for, something real life.
你给我解释一下IRL代表什么，真实的生活。
Neil Witten (01:10:30): 尼尔维滕（01：10：30）：
In real life. 在真实的生活中。
Pieter Levels (01:10:31):
Pieter Levels（01：10：31）：
In real life. 在真实的生活中。
Ray Richards (01:10:31): 雷理查兹（01：10：31）：
In real life. Okay. 在真实的生活中。好吧
Neil Witten (01:10:32): 尼尔维滕（01：10：32）：
Because- 因为-
Pieter Levels (01:10:33):
Pieter Levels（01：10：33）：
Especially we use it as a verb, like IRLing.
尤其是我们把它用作动词，比如IRLing。
Ray Richards (01:10:36): 雷理查兹（01：10：36）：
Yeah. Okay. 是啊好吧
Neil Witten (01:10:38): 尼尔维滕（01：10：38）：
Because so much- 因为太多-
Pieter Levels (01:10:40):
Pieter Levels（01：10：40）：
[inaudible 01:10:40] generation is fucked.
一代人都被操了。
Neil Witten (01:10:40): 尼尔维滕（01：10：40）：
Yeah. Because what’s IRL going to be, what even is it going to mean? But what you mean by that is your-
是啊因为IRL会是什么，它到底意味着什么？但你的意思是…
Pieter Levels (01:10:49):
Pieter Levels（01：10：49）：
It means not on the phone.
意思是不能在电话里说。
Neil Witten (01:10:50): 尼尔维滕（01：10：50）：
Not on a screen. 不是在屏幕上。
Ray Richards (01:10:53): 雷理查兹（01：10：53）：
Yeah. 是啊
Pieter Levels (01:10:53):
Pieter Levels（01：10：53）：
Because we’re always on the phone, on a computer. So it’s IRLing is out there.
因为我们总是在电话里，在电脑上。所以是艾琳在外面。
Ray Richards (01:10:58): 雷理查兹（01：10：58）：
And what does this count as? What does this conversation here, count as?
这算什么你这番话算什么？
Pieter Levels (01:11:02):
Pieter Levels（01：11：02）：
This is a little in the middle, because it’s social, but it’s still in the computer. IRLing is like, we go to the cafe anyway, drink coffee. Tt’s IRL, but you’re still bring your laptop. So it’s like, [inaudible 01:11:16]. But going to real activity, going to do some stuff, go hiking or whatever, activities.
这是一个中间的一点，因为它的社会，但它仍然在计算机中。伊玲说，我们还是去咖啡馆喝咖啡吧。我知道，但你还是要带笔记本电脑。就像，听不清。但是去参加真实的活动，去做一些事情，去远足或其他活动。
Ray Richards (01:11:25): 雷理查兹（01：11：25）：
Yeah. It’s so crazy. Sorry, it’s just so… We definitely need to do more of that.
是啊太疯狂了抱歉，只是太…我们肯定需要做更多的事情。
Pieter Levels (01:11:34):
Pieter Levels（01：11：34）：
No, but I agree it’s crazy. But I don’t think it’s a generation thing even, it’s just like-
不，但我同意这很疯狂。但我不认为这是一代人的事，就像-
Ray Richards (01:11:40): 雷理查兹（01：11：40）：
To some extent it is for sure, but-
在某种程度上是肯定的，但是-
Pieter Levels (01:11:44):
Pieter Levels（01：11：44）：
Yeah. I know my mom and dad, they’re IRLing all day. They’re gardening and working on the house, and then they check also the chats in the family group chat and stuff. But generally, and they read the news or something. But for sure, everybody’s all day on their phone. Well, most are in the computer working, and then regular people, are mostly on their phone these days.
是啊我了解我的父母，他们整天都在吵架。他们在做园艺，在家里干活，然后他们也会查看家庭群聊天室里的聊天记录。但一般来说，他们会看新闻什么的。但可以肯定的是，每个人都整天在打电话。嗯，大多数人都在电脑上工作，然后普通人，这些天大多在打电话。
Neil Witten (01:12:11): 尼尔维滕（01：12：11）：
I’m just going to throw a few more pointed questions at you, if it’s okay Pieter, just before we close out.
如果可以的话，我想再问你几个尖锐的问题，皮特，就在我们结束之前。
Pieter Levels (01:12:19):
Pieter Levels（01：12：19）：
[inaudible 01:12:19]. [2019 - 01 - 19 00：01：00]
Neil Witten (01:12:20): 尼尔维滕（01：12：20）：
I want to just acknowledge your dad for a second, actually, because you mentioned him earlier. And I heard you say somewhere that you got some advice from your dad where, if you ever feel down or depressed, then go to the garden and dig a big hole, and then fill the hole in and then dig a big hole again.
我想先跟你爸爸说声谢谢，因为你之前提到过他。我听你说过，你从你爸爸那里得到了一些建议，如果你感到沮丧或沮丧，那就去花园挖一个大洞，然后把洞填上，然后再挖一个大洞。
Neil Witten (01:12:35): 尼尔维滕（01：12：35）：
I just wanted to acknowledge that, and just give you a moment to talk to about him, and see if there’s anything that he or your mom has given you that’s… Because you mentioned it earlier, you said there’s something about having your own mind. And I don’t want us to miss that, in the importance of the way that you think, and how you’ve been able to apply you to the world.
我只是想承认这一点，只是给予你一点时间来谈谈他，看看有没有什么，他或你妈妈给你这是.因为你之前提到过，你说有自己的想法。我不希望我们错过这一点，你思考的方式的重要性，以及你如何能够将你应用于世界。
Pieter Levels (01:12:59):
Pieter Levels（01：12：59）：
Yeah. Like I said, they’ve always taught us to think for ourselves, to not trust the group opinion because it’s often wrong, but it’s very hard to go against a group because there’s so many people. But I do feel groups are usually delayed in their ideology, because in a group something has to spread. So you’re usually an early adopter if you’re an individual. Like now nomad stuff, remote work is mainstream, so now the group was like, “Yeah, remote work is great.” But 10 years ago, they said remote work doesn’t work. But individuals said, “Well, it works for me.” I think I do have a skill like early lobster, I can see trends a little bit early, and I think it’s because I think for myself. And I try practice radical honesty. So I try not lie, it’s not perfect, but I do my best.
是啊就像我说的，他们总是教我们独立思考，不要相信群体的观点，因为它经常是错误的，但是很难反对一个群体，因为有这么多人。但我确实觉得群体在意识形态上通常是滞后的，因为在一个群体中，有些东西必须传播。所以如果你是个人，你通常是一个早期的采用者。就像现在游牧民族的东西，远程工作是主流，所以现在的小组就像，“是的，远程工作是伟大的。“但10年前，他们说远程工作行不通。但有些人说：“好吧，这对我很有效。“我认为我确实有一种像早期龙虾一样的技能，我可以提前一点看到趋势，我认为这是因为我为自己着想。我试着做到彻底的诚实。所以我试着不撒谎，这并不完美，但我尽力了。
Pieter Levels (01:14:01):
Pieter Levels（01：14：01）：
And if you’re honest to other people, you also start being honest to yourself. Because your brain is constantly bullshitting yourself, you’re constantly trying to avoid stuff. And a lot of things that you think for yourself that are… And you think, “I’m weird, because I think this thought.” But then actually, when you speak it out, often a lot of other people think the same thing. Especially now with internet, if you tweet something that’s outrageous, there would be a hundred people all over the world like, “Yeah, I actually have the same thing.” So it’s a great time for early adopter kind of thinking because of internet, because if you would say in your hometown like, “Oh, I love remote work, it’s so good.” Hometown would be like, “Nah, this is bullshit.” But because of internet, you could connect to a lot of other people in the world who might agree with you. And then in 10 years, the whole world agrees with you. So-
如果你对别人诚实，你也开始对自己诚实。因为你的大脑一直在欺骗自己，你一直在试图避免一些事情。很多你自己想的事情…你会想，“我很奇怪，因为我认为这个想法。“但实际上，当你说出来的时候，很多人也会这么想。特别是现在有了互联网，如果你在推特上发布一些令人发指的东西，全世界都会有一百个人说，“是的，我也有同样的事情。“所以这是一个伟大的时间，因为互联网的早期采用者的想法，因为如果你会说，在你的家乡一样，“哦，我喜欢远程工作，它是如此之好。“家乡人会说“不这都是扯淡“但是因为互联网，你可以联系到世界上很多其他可能同意你的人。十年后，全世界都同意你的观点。所以-
Ray Richards (01:14:57): 雷理查兹（01：14：57）：
Well, because you could go back… Not that long ago, if you were the weirdo in your…
因为你可以回去…就在不久前，如果你是那个怪人…
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [01:15:04]
第三部分（共四个结局）
Ray Richards (01:15:03): 雷理查兹（01：15：03）：
… not that long ago, if you were the weirdo in your town, you could have really got really quite down on yourself because you were just thinking in a very different way to the people around you. You might have thought you are the only one and you might have actually thought you really were a weirdo in the worst sense. I always tell my kids to hang out with weirdos. But these days, as you say, the world is much flatter and you can find other weirdos.
…就在不久前，如果你是镇上的怪人，你可能会对自己感到非常失望，因为你的思维方式和周围的人完全不同。你可能会认为你是唯一一个，你可能会认为你真的是一个最坏意义上的怪人。我总是告诉我的孩子要和怪人一起玩。但这些天来，正如你所说，世界是平坦得多，你可以找到其他怪胎。
Pieter Levels (01:15:26):
Pieter Levels（01：15：26）：
Well, back then you would be persecuted by the church or burnt.
嗯，在那个时候你会被教会迫害或者被烧死。
Ray Richards (01:15:29): 雷理查兹（01：15：29）：
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 当然了是啊
Pieter Levels (01:15:30):
Pieter Levels（01：15：30）：
Right. Witches and stuff in medieval time. But this is interesting because it’s ingrained in our biology that you don’t want to feel like outcast. You don’t want to feel like a weirdo, when being a weirdo and outcast, I mean, obviously not all the time, but it can be beneficial.
对的中世纪的女巫什么的。但这很有趣，因为在我们的生物学中，你不想感到被排斥。你不想感觉自己像个怪人，当一个怪人和弃儿，我的意思是，显然不是所有的时间，但它可以是有益的。
Ray Richards (01:15:47): 雷理查兹（01：15：47）：
Yeah. I was listening to a podcast the other day and they were talking about how knowing what you want is a super skill. And I think that plays into what you’re saying, because if most people don’t know what they want, then they’re going to just copy what everyone else is doing. If you know what you want, then people are more likely to follow. And there’s more likely to be creativity applied to that. It’s a different mode.
是啊前几天我听了一个播客，他们在谈论如何知道你想要什么是一种超级技能。我认为这符合你所说的，因为如果大多数人不知道他们想要什么，那么他们就会复制其他人正在做的事情。如果你知道你想要什么，那么人们更有可能跟随。更有可能是创造力应用于其中。这是一种不同的模式。
Pieter Levels (01:16:12):
Pieter Levels（01：16：12）：
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And you see this on Twitter. If you tweet something that everybody else tweets, and you see this all the time, it doesn’t take off. And if you tweet, what’s radically honest in yourself and you’re an interesting person, you’re a unique person. Then it takes off first. First you need to become a unique person.
没错是啊是啊你可以在Twitter上看到这个。如果你发了别人都发的微博，你总是看到这种情况，它就不会起飞。如果你发微博，你是一个非常诚实的人，你是一个有趣的人，你是一个独特的人。然后它先起飞。首先，你必须成为一个独特的人。
Ray Richards (01:16:30): 雷理查兹（01：16：30）：
The same as CVs. Me and my son’s been sending his CV around. He’s looking for work, and he’s being advised to do it this way, because this is the way you do a CV. Well, you’re just going to look exactly the same as everybody else. Create your own version of a CV. And then you never know somebody who is a little bit innovative might look at an innovative CV and go hang on, this one’s a bit more interesting.
就像CV一样。我和我儿子把他的简历寄出去了。他在找工作，有人建议他这样做，因为这是你写简历的方式。你看起来和其他人一样。创建您自己的CV版本。然后你永远不会知道一个有点创新的人可能会看到一份创新的简历，然后继续，这份更有趣。
Pieter Levels (01:16:56):
Pieter Levels（01：16：56）：
I literally did this. I went into Photoshop. I made my own visual graphic CV with charts and colors and everything. And I tried to make into a business too, but-
我真的做到了。我去了Photoshop。我做了自己的视觉图形简历，有图表和颜色等等。我也想做生意，但是-
Ray Richards (01:17:11): 雷理查兹（01：17：11）：
[inaudible 01:17:11], of course, you did.
当然，你做到了。
Neil Witten (01:17:12): 尼尔维滕（01：17：12）：
We never touched on that actually. Did you ever actually have a proper job, Peter?
我们从来没有提到过。你有过正经工作吗彼得
Pieter Levels (01:17:17):
Pieter Levels（01：17：17）：
Yeah. I worked in a call center for, ING for the Dutch banking company and oh my God, it was so funny. I had to call existing customers. I had to call the ING bank customers and try upsell them insurance by the sister company kind of. And I had to do the script and I got paid, I think five euros per hour or something. And I would sit in these islands, office islands, kind of with other people and had a headset and I had to do this whole script, like hello, this Peter blah, blah, blah. And the script didn’t work, but you need to follow the script. But the script didn’t really work. Nobody told anything. They’re like, why are you not saying anything? So I started changing the script, and this is interesting because this shows it immediately starts getting low in ethics.
是啊我在荷兰银行公司ING的呼叫中心工作，天哪，太有趣了。我不得不打电话给现有的客户。我不得不打电话给ING银行的客户，试着通过姐妹公司向他们推销保险。我不得不写剧本，我得到了报酬，我想每小时5欧元左右。我会坐在这些岛，办公室岛，和其他人在一起，戴着耳机，我不得不做整个剧本，比如你好，这个彼得，等等。剧本没有成功，但你得照着剧本来。但剧本并不成功。没人告诉我他们会问你为什么不说话所以我开始改变剧本，这很有趣，因为这表明它立即开始变得道德低下。
Pieter Levels (01:18:09):
Pieter Levels（01：18：09）：
So I started asking, do you like your ING bank accounts? Do you have any problems with it? Trying to make a relationship first. They’re like, yeah, actually this is okay. Interesting. Well, we can get a financial advisor to come to your house. Talk about it and also talk about your personal insurance situation. And they’re all like, yeah, great. And okay, let’s do an appointment. And then bam. And I would go up in the charts of selling and I would be setting like 10 a day, and everybody’s like, wow, what the fuck? And then they ask me like, what are you saying? Like I say this to them. And they’re like, okay. So everybody started using my scripts, and then the manager found out because they listen in. They found out after a month-
所以我开始问，你喜欢你的ING银行账户吗？你有什么问题吗？想先建立一段感情。他们说，是啊，其实这是好的。有趣.好吧，我们可以找个理财顾问到你家来。谈谈它，也谈谈你的个人保险情况。他们都说，是的，很好。好吧，我们来预约。然后砰我在销售排行榜上名列前茅，我一天能卖出10个，每个人都说，哇，这他妈的是什么？然后他们问我你在说什么就像我对他们说的。他们说，好吧。所以每个人都开始用我的剧本，然后经理发现了，因为他们偷听了。一个月后他们发现-
Ray Richards (01:18:52): 雷理查兹（01：18：52）：
I know what you’re going to say. I know what you’re going to say. Oh God, God.
我知道你要说什么。我知道你要说什么。哦，上帝，上帝。
Pieter Levels (01:18:56):
Pieter Levels（01：18：56）：
And then the manager was like, okay, boardroom need to all come into the meeting. And it’s like three of these kids, 18 year old something. And he’s like, okay, you’ve all been changing the script. And you’ve all been saying some random shit, and it’s causing us problems. And he was really angry and who started this? But I didn’t say. Nobody snitched me. But that was the thing. That was my main job, so.
然后经理说，好吧，会议室的人都要来开会。好像有三个孩子，18岁左右。他说，好吧，你们都在改剧本。你们一直在说一些乱七八糟的话，这给我们带来了麻烦。他很生气，是谁先开始的？但我没说。没人告发我但问题就在这里这是我的主要工作，所以。
Ray Richards (01:19:19): 雷理查兹：
But then I think- 但是我想…
Neil Witten (01:19:20): 尼尔维滕（01：19：20）：
But the outcome was you’ve got to get back to the script?
但结果是你必须回到剧本上？
Pieter Levels (01:19:24):
Pieter Levels（01：19：24）：
Yeah, exactly. 是啊
Ray Richards (01:19:25): 雷理查兹（01：19：25）：
How- 怎么–
Pieter Levels (01:19:27):
Pieter Levels（01：19：27）：
My script was a little bit dodgy though.
不过，我的剧本有点不靠谱。
Ray Richards (01:19:29): 雷理查兹（01：19：29）：
Yeah. But that could have been the fun.
是啊但这可能是乐趣所在。
Neil Witten (01:19:30): 尼尔维滕（01：19：30）：
But with some time, you would’ve found a good script.
但再过段时间你就能找到好剧本了。
Pieter Levels (01:19:32):
Pieter Levels（01：19：32）：
Exactly. Yeah. 没错是啊
Neil Witten (01:19:33): 尼尔维滕（01：19：33）：
That was the whole point.
这才是重点
Ray Richards (01:19:35): 雷理查兹（01：19：35）：
I mean, but this is the problem really? And this is not about ING. It’s not about call centers. It’s just about, this is the way we do things. I was on the committee at the local Baton club and it’s the same. It’s like, no, no, no, we need to stick to the rules. I know. But the rules don’t work. That’s not the point. We need to stick to the rules and it’s just not going banging head against the brick wall. It’s just, oh. Anyway, sorry.
我是说，这就是问题所在？这不是关于ING。这不是关于呼叫中心。这就是我们做事的方式我是当地指挥棒俱乐部的委员会成员，情况也一样。就像，不，我们得遵守规则。我知道但规则不起作用。这不是重点我们需要遵守规则，这只是不去撞头撞墙。只是…总之，对不起。
Neil Witten (01:20:04): 尼尔维滕（01：20：04）：
Yeah. A couple of other quick ones. So I heard somewhere, when you were talking about automation making more time, I think there was a question around, so if you had no time and you didn’t have anything on, what would you do? And I think your answer was I’d go back to art projects.
是啊其他几个快速的。所以我在某个地方听说，当你谈到自动化可以节省更多的时间时，我想有一个问题，如果你没有时间，你什么都没有，你会怎么做？我想你的回答是我会回到艺术项目。
Pieter Levels (01:20:24):
Pieter Levels（01：20：24）：
Yeah. 是啊
Neil Witten (01:20:25): 尼尔维滕（01：20：25）：
How are you thinking about that now? How are you thinking about your time in art and what art means to you?
你现在怎么想的？你如何看待你的艺术生涯，艺术对你意味着什么？
Pieter Levels (01:20:33):
Pieter Levels（01：20：33）：
Yeah. I mean, art is kind of potential for, I mean, I guess more creativity and stuff. I think the web now is in a way, you know like the word multimedia. There was like a big word in the nineties, and I think it’s still accurate word. It’s like the web is multimedia. It’s visuals, sometimes audio, video, it’s everything. It’s interactive. And in a way, it’s like the coolest art form, like inflationchart.com, maybe a little bit like art project because it challenges the existing status quo of the government and stuff. It’s visual, and it doesn’t make money, but it’s a little bit of, yeah, it’s creative product kind and you could make graphic art. Now, I guess you could sell as NFTs again. But graphic arts is so limited. So like static, and YouTubers are in a way artists, they’re very creative. They’re making all these cool videos and explaining videos and stuff. So-
是啊我的意思是，艺术是一种潜力，我的意思是，我想更多的创造力和东西。我认为网络现在在某种程度上，你知道的，就像多媒体这个词。在九十年代有一个很大的词，我认为它仍然是准确的词。就像网络是多媒体一样。它是视觉，有时是音频，视频，它是一切。它是互动的。在某种程度上，这是最酷的艺术形式，就像inflationchart.com，也许有点像艺术项目，因为它挑战了政府和其他东西的现有现状。它是视觉的，它不赚钱，但它有点，是的，它是一种创造性的产品，你可以制作图形艺术。现在，我想你可以再次作为NFT销售。但图形艺术是如此的有限。就像静态的一样，YouTube用户在某种程度上是艺术家，他们非常有创造力。他们制作了所有这些很酷的视频和解释视频和东西。所以-
Neil Witten (01:21:37): 尼尔维滕（01：21：37）：
We normally start this podcast with the question, how do you describe yourself to people? So when you meet somebody new and they ask that horrible question, what do you do? How do you answer it? How do you actually answer that question today?
我们通常以这样的问题开始这个播客，你如何向人们描述你自己？所以当你遇到一个新的人，他们问你这个可怕的问题，你会怎么做？你怎么回答？今天你怎么回答这个问题？
Pieter Levels (01:21:51):
Pieter Levels（01：21：51）：
It’s so funny because in the beginning, you talk to taxi drivers and they ask what you do, and this whole fucking story about [inaudible 01:22:01]. And it’s like this website. So it’s [inaudible 01:22:04] and there’s community and then there’s meetups and blah, blah. And it’s too much. So now I just say, I make a travel website, and I make a job board for work from home because that works with regular people. They understand immediately and like work from home. It’s like, yeah, but I guess I [inaudible 01:22:32].
这很有趣，因为在一开始，你和出租车司机交谈，他们问你做什么，这整个他妈的故事关于[听不见01：22：01]。就像这个网站。所以它是[听不见的01：22：04]，有社区，然后有聚会，等等。太多了。所以现在我只是说，我做了一个旅游网站，我做了一个在家工作的工作板，因为它适用于普通人。他们立即理解并喜欢在家工作。“是的，我想，是的，我想，是的，是的，我想，是的。
Neil Witten (01:22:32): 尼尔维滕（01：22：32）：
Would you ever describe yourself or think of yourself as an artist?
你会把自己描述成或者认为自己是一个艺术家吗？
Pieter Levels (01:22:37):
Pieter Levels（01：22：37）：
No. Because artists is not like, if you’re a real artist, it’s not about money, right. It’s about costly, challenging everything, challenging yourself, challenging the society, [inaudible 01:22:49].
不。因为艺术家不像，如果你是一个真实的艺术家，它不是关于钱，对吧。这是关于昂贵的，挑战一切，挑战自己，挑战社会。
Ray Richards (01:22:49): 雷理查兹（01：22：49）：
But yours is- 但你的…
Neil Witten (01:22:50): 尼尔维滕（01：22：50）：
Isn’t that where you’re at?
你不也是这样吗
Ray Richards (01:22:51): 雷理查兹（01：22：51）：
Yours isn’t about money from, I guess it seems it’s not now anyway.
你的不是钱的问题，我想现在也不是了。
Pieter Levels (01:22:56):
Pieter Levels（01：22：56）：
Well I charge money, right. [inaudible 01:22:59]
我收钱，对吧。【听不见的声音】
Ray Richards (01:22:58): 雷理查兹（01：22：58）：
Yeah, but artists charge money.
是啊，但是艺术家要收钱的。
Pieter Levels (01:23:05):
Pieter Levels（01：23：05）：
Yeah. I would prefer creative. I think like banksies artists. Right. That’s like always challenging and stuff. I think that’s real art.
是啊我更喜欢创造性。我觉得像班克斯的艺术家。对的总是充满挑战。我觉得那才是真实的艺术。
Ray Richards (01:23:17): 雷理查兹（01：23：17）：
Yeah. Okay. But you’re a creative business, though.
是啊好吧但你是个有创意的行业。
Pieter Levels (01:23:20):
Pieter Levels（01：23：20）：
It is definitely kind something artistic. It’s creative. Yeah. It’s artistic, creative. And I think that’s what I like. And what’s what makes it really fun. And yeah.
这绝对是一种艺术。很有创意。是啊很有艺术性，很有创意。我想这就是我喜欢的。是什么让它真正有趣。没错
Neil Witten (01:23:33): 尼尔维滕（01：23：33）：
Are you still carrying your laptop around in a carrier bag, Peter.
你还把笔记本电脑放在手提袋里吗彼得
Pieter Levels (01:23:38):
Pieter Levels（01：23：38）：
Actually, this changed because of Andre. Andre, he couldn’t take it anymore that I-
事实上，这一切都是因为安德烈。安德烈，他再也受不了了，我-
Neil Witten (01:23:44): 尼尔维滕（01：23：44）：
Please tell me that he bought you a bag.
告诉我他给你买了个包。
Pieter Levels (01:23:46):
Pieter Levels（01：23：46）：
He bought me a backpack. But I didn’t like this backpack. This is some low and it was too hard. So I was like, Andre, I don’t like your gift. He’s like, thank you for being radically honest. I said, okay, then he got it. And then I just ordered a [inaudible 01:24:02] backpack. But yeah, grocery bags are great. I was considering also making data business, left up grocery bags because it’s kind of cool. It’s kind of like a fascist statement.
他给我买了个背包。但我不喜欢这个背包。这是一些低，这是太难了。所以我说，安德烈，我不喜欢你的礼物。他说，谢谢你这么坦诚。我说，好吧，然后他得到了它。然后我只是订购了一个[听不见01：24：02]背包。不过，杂货袋很不错。我也在考虑做数据业务，把购物袋留下，因为这很酷。有点像法西斯主义的宣言。
Ray Richards (01:24:17): 雷理查兹（01：24：17）：
Well, I have to say, I have to admit that I have my grocery bags from Amsterdam that I use all the time. Because you can carry them over your shoulder. Not the plastic bags that you carry in your hand.
好吧，我不得不说，我不得不承认我有我的杂货袋从阿姆斯特丹，我用所有的时间。因为你可以把它们扛在肩上。不是你手里拿着的塑料袋。
Pieter Levels (01:24:27):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
What do you call them? Girls always have these bags.
你叫他们什么？女孩们总是带着这些包。
Ray Richards (01:24:31): 雷理查兹（01：24：31）：
Totes bags. 手提袋。
Neil Witten (01:24:32): 尼尔维滕（01：24：32）：
Yeah. 是啊
Ray Richards (01:24:32): 雷理查兹（01：24：32）：
Yeah. That’s right. 是啊没错.
Pieter Levels (01:24:33):
Pieter Levels（01：24：33）：
Tote bag. 手提袋。
Ray Richards (01:24:34): 雷理查兹（01：24：34）：
Yeah, but that’s great. Because when you’ve emptied all your stuff out of your bag, you can put it in your pocket. You can’t do that with a rucksack.
是啊，但那很好。因为当你把包里所有的东西都倒出来后，你就可以把它放进口袋里了。你不能带着背包去。
Neil Witten (01:24:39): 尼尔维滕（01：24：39）：
Yeah. But when- 是啊但当…
Pieter Levels (01:24:41):
Pieter Levels（01：24：41）：
I think there’s something. Yeah.
我觉得有东西。是啊
Neil Witten (01:24:42): 尼尔维滕（01：24：42）：
No, go ahead. Go ahead.
不，你说吧。去吧
Pieter Levels (01:24:43):
Pieter Levels（01：24：43）：
There’s something cool about a grocery bag because it force you also to be minimal. Backpack feels again a little bit like corporate, you’re going to, like in London, you always have suits with backpacks and such going to the HSBC office and stuff and who the fuck goes with a grocery bag? It’s kind of like a statement. Obviously having a MacBook in a grocery bag is just as much as a statement as a Louis Vuitton bag. It’s just a different statement. It’s like, look, I don’t give a fuck. Yeah.
购物袋很酷，因为它迫使你也变得最小。背包感觉又有点像公司，你要去，就像在伦敦，你总是有西装和背包，这样去汇丰银行办公室和东西，谁他妈的去杂货袋？就像是一种声明。显然，在杂货袋里放一台MacBook和路易威登的袋子一样，都是一种声明。只是不同的说法。就像，听着，我不给给予他妈的。是啊
Neil Witten (01:25:14): 尼尔维滕（01：25：14）：
Yeah. I like that. 是啊我喜欢
Ray Richards (01:25:16): 雷理查兹（01：25：16）：
It’s probably better than having a grocery laptop in Apple bag though, isn’t it?
这可能比在苹果包里放一台杂货店的笔记本电脑要好，不是吗？
Pieter Levels (01:25:22):
Pieter Levels（01：25：22）：
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah.
是啊是啊是啊真的是啊
Neil Witten (01:25:24): 尼尔维滕（01：25：24）：
Okay. My last question I think, you talk about, so you don’t intend to ever buy a house. You’re trying to be-
好吧我想我的最后一个问题，你说，所以你不打算买房子。你想-
Pieter Levels (01:25:35):
Pieter Levels（01：25：35）：
Well, you can never know the future, right?
你永远无法预知未来，对吧
Neil Witten (01:25:36): 尼尔维滕（01：25：36）：
Never say never. 永远不要说永远。
Pieter Levels (01:25:37):
Pieter Levels（01：25：37）：
It’s like, yeah. Yeah. It’s like, yeah.
就像，是的。是啊就像，是的。
Neil Witten (01:25:39): 尼尔维滕（01：25：39）：
But your minimalist, you’re trying not to make things about money particularly. And what I think about is what are your vices? What is it that you’re going, I really do want that thing, but I’m not going to let myself have it. And I wondered whether the backpack might have fallen into that category instantly.
但是你的极简主义者，你试图不去做关于钱的事情。我想的是你的恶习是什么？你要去的是什么，我真的很想要那个东西，但我不会让自己拥有它。我想知道背包是否会立即落入那个类别。
Pieter Levels (01:26:05):
Pieter Levels（01：26：05）：
I really want like two cats and a dog because my ex-girlfriend had two cats and they were really cute. And I want a dog, but then I have to walk the dog. So it’s kind of like, I need to be settled down in Portugal or something. So maybe. I don’t even like cars, maybe a Tesla. I don’t even have a driver’s license. So I can’t even drive a Tesla. So I only buy MacBook. I buy a iPhone. I don’t even like a DSLR camera because it’s too much. Every device you buy, you have to charge it. I have a Kindle. I never use it. I always have to charge it.
我真的想要两只猫和一只狗，因为我的前女友有两只猫，它们真的很可爱。我想要一只狗，但我得去遛狗。所以，我需要在葡萄牙定居下来。所以也许吧。我甚至不喜欢汽车，也许特斯拉。我连驾照都没有。所以我连特斯拉都不会开。我只买MacBook。我买了一部iPhone。我甚至不喜欢单反相机，因为它太多了。你买的每一个设备都要充电。我有一个Kindle。我从来不用。我总是要充电。
Pieter Levels (01:26:47):
Pieter Levels（01：26：47）：
I really like spending on, for example, now I spend on a kind of hotel apartment kind of place here, which I mean the living room now, there’s a bedroom. It’s really nice, nice view. Like service kind of apartments. And it costs a little bit more than an Amsterdam apartment you would rent. It’s quite expensive. It was like 3k a month. But you don’t have a water pipe leaking and you don’t have shit breaking. It’s kind of like a service thing, kind of furnished, serviced. And it’s really nice. That’s stuff I like to spend money on. It’s more like an experience to live somewhere nice. And [inaudible 01:27:33], yeah.
我非常喜欢花钱，比如说，现在我在这里花了一种酒店公寓的地方，我的意思是现在的客厅，有一个卧室。很漂亮，风景很好。就像服务公寓。它比你在阿姆斯特丹租的公寓贵一点。很贵的。一个月3 K。但你没有水管漏水，也没有大便破裂。有点像服务，有家具，有服务。它真的很好。这是我喜欢花钱买的东西。它更像是一种住在好地方的体验。（听不清）是的。
Ray Richards (01:27:33): 雷理查兹（01：27：33）：
So it creates you time, it frees up time because you’re not doing-
所以它创造了你的时间，它释放了时间，因为你没有做-
Pieter Levels (01:27:37):
Pieter Levels（01：27：37）：
Yeah. I think that’s why it’s worth it. And outside the air in [inaudible 01:27:41] is now quite bad. It’s like 120 AQI, I think. And inside is filtered air. I have a sensor and it’s like, AQI one. So the air is really good. That kind of stuff is how, oh yeah, actually steak, organic meats, organic vegetables. I like to cook and I like to buy good ingredients because I think it’s important for health, like microplastics and stuff. And I don’t like farm meat, like it’s not nice for the animal, but that’s definitely nice to spend money on. It’s again, just spending money on experiences and not on stuff. Because stuff, you get used to it so fast, you buy a new thing. And within a week you’re used to it. I bought this t-shirt four days ago and now I’m like, I’m still in the happy mode.
是啊我认为这就是为什么它是值得的。外面的空气中[听不见01：27：41]现在是相当糟糕。好像是空气质量指数120.里面是经过过滤的空气。我有一个传感器，它就像，空气质量指数1。空气真的很好。这类东西是如何，哦，是的，实际上牛排，有机肉类，有机蔬菜。我喜欢做饭，我喜欢买好的食材，因为我认为这对健康很重要，比如微塑料之类的。我不喜欢农场的肉，因为这对动物不好，但花钱买农场的肉绝对是件好事。这又是一次，只是把钱花在体验上，而不是东西上。因为东西，你很快就习惯了，你买了一个新的东西。一周之内你就习惯了。我四天前买了这件T恤，现在我想，我还在快乐模式中。
Pieter Levels (01:28:25):
Pieter Levels（01：28：25）：
This is a nice new t-shirt-
这件新T恤不错
Neil Witten (01:28:27): 尼尔维滕（01：28：27）：
I was going to say, I really like your t-shirt.
我想说我真的很喜欢你的T恤
Pieter Levels (01:28:30):
Pieter Levels（01：28：30）：
Thank you. But in a few days I’m like, yeah, who cares? So I’ve proven that things really don’t make me happy and home ownership, a new house makes you happy. But then after six months, you’re the same. Marriage, after 12 months, you feel the same. A car, three to six months feel the same. So I think this is absolutely proven now. And unless it’s an object that you can use for an experience, if you are a good guitarist, you need a good guitar. If you’re starting out, maybe buy a cheap guitar, but it’s something you use that makes you happy and buy a nice pen to write with or something. But you see in Asia, especially because there’s so many malls, you see how much stuff is produced in China and stuff and how much perfume and bags and all these Bluetooth speakers and this and that and all these stuff.
谢谢但几天后我就想，是啊，谁在乎？所以我已经证明了事情真的不会让我快乐，而拥有一套新房子会让你快乐。但六个月后你还是老样子。结婚12个月后，你的感觉还是一样。一辆车，三到六个月的感觉都一样。所以我认为这一点现在已经得到了充分的证明。除非它是一个你可以用来体验的东西，如果你是一个好的吉他手，你需要一个好的吉他。如果你刚开始，也许买一把便宜的吉他，但它是你用的东西，让你快乐，买一支漂亮的笔来写什么的。但你看在亚洲，特别是因为有这么多的商场，你看到有多少东西是在中国生产的，有多少香水和包，所有这些蓝牙扬声器，这个和那个，所有这些东西。
Pieter Levels (01:29:25):
Pieter Levels（01：29：25）：
It’s absolutely we’re in a consumerist addicted culture. That again, it’s same with alcohol. People are bored, not happy with their life. And then you start buying shit to make you happy. You start filling up your house with stuff, you have all these people, these tech people, they always buy these lights, purple blue lights for their home. And I know these people and they always also have the special keyboards and they have the laptop stand and they’re like, their work is not about their work. It’s about, they’re obsessed with making this room so perfect which is nice. But it’s also not my thing. It’s all about stuff. And then it never stops. You always need to buy more like, oh I need to collect my cables into a cable tube. Okay. But you know what I mean? Having just a MacBook forced you to and just a backpack force you to limit it and you cannot buy more because you have to carry everything. And let’s, I think a really good benefit.
这是绝对的，我们在一个消费上瘾的文化。同样，这与酒精是一样的。人们感到无聊，对生活不满意。然后你就开始买垃圾来让自己开心你开始在你的房子里塞满东西，你有所有这些人，这些技术人员，他们总是买这些灯，紫色蓝色的灯给他们的家。我知道这些人，他们总是有特殊的键盘，他们有笔记本电脑的立场，他们喜欢，他们的工作是不是他们的工作。他们一心想把这间屋子装修得很完美。但这也不是我的风格。一切都是关于物质的。然后就没完没了你总是需要买更多的像，哦，我需要收集我的电缆到一个电缆管。好吧但你明白我的意思吗？只有一台MacBook迫使你，只有一个背包迫使你限制它，你不能买更多，因为你必须携带一切。我认为这是一个很好的福利。
Neil Witten (01:30:27): 尼尔维滕（01：30：27）：
Create constraints. We talk about this a lot in our podcast. It comes up all the time actually. But the importance of having constraints, either you put the constraints in yourself or you just value the constraints rather than trying to push the constraints away.
创建约束。我们在播客中谈论了很多。实际上，它总是出现。但是约束的重要性，要么你把约束放在自己身上，要么你只是重视约束，而不是试图把约束推开。
Pieter Levels (01:30:41):
Pieter Levels（01：30：41）：
A hundred percent and constraints make you unique. And when I was making music, I had a really shitty computer to make music on and it was too slow. So I couldn’t use all the channels. I had to use only one drum kit or something in the channel. And then my music became successful. I was on BBC radio one, I was on 1Xtra playlisted. And then I was like, let’s use this money. I got royalties. I get registered at the British royalty agency. And then I used that money to buy a new computer. And it was the best spec out computer. And I could have infinite audio channels on it. And I think my music became worse from then. It was more real with the constraint of a shitty computer. And on this new one, I could do anything and it was not. So I think this is a real thing. And I think if you’re honest with yourself, life is about experiences, about friends, about relationships, about meaningful work, about exercise, foods, being healthy and stuff. And if you prioritize those things, I think you care less about stuff because it doesn’t make you happy and you don’t need it because you don’t need a drug or an addiction or an extrinsic thing to fill your dopamine. It’s all about dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin and stuff, these hormones, and…
百分百和限制让你独一无二。当我做音乐的时候，我有一台很烂的电脑来做音乐，它太慢了。所以我不能用所有的频道。我不得不在频道里只用一个架子鼓什么的。然后我的音乐就成功了。我在BBC广播一台，我在1Xtra播放列表上。然后我就想，让我们用这笔钱。我有版税。我在英国皇室代理处注册。然后我用那笔钱买了一台新电脑。这是最好的规格了电脑。我可以有无限的音频通道。我想我的音乐从那时起变得更糟了。在一台破电脑的约束下，它更真实的。在这个新的世界上，我可以做任何事，但事实并非如此。所以我认为这是一件真实的事情。我认为，如果你对自己诚实，生活就是关于经历，关于朋友，关于关系，关于有意义的工作，关于锻炼，食物，健康等等。 如果你优先考虑这些事情，我认为你不太关心这些东西，因为它不会让你快乐，你不需要它，因为你不需要药物或成瘾或外在的东西来填补你的多巴胺。这都是关于多巴胺，血清素和催产素和东西，这些激素，和.
Neil Witten (01:32:20): 尼尔维滕（01：32：20）：
You need a good swim in some cold sea.
你需要在寒冷的海水里好好游个泳。
Pieter Levels (01:32:25):
Pieter Levels（01：32：25）：
Or a hot bath, it’s also nice.
或者洗个热水澡也不错。
Neil Witten (01:32:27): 尼尔维滕（01：32：27）：
Or above. Yeah, exactly. 或以上是啊
Pieter Levels (01:32:30):
Pieter Levels（01：32：30）：
I’m not into this whole [inaudible 01:32:33] Dutch guy method, but I take hot baths a lot and I love hot baths and sauna is nice. But yeah, I don’t know. And home ownership is more interesting because I track the home prices and stuff and I know what’s going on. And even with leverage of a mortgage, I think it could even be more beneficial to just put all your money in ETFs, in diverse market, index funds and [inaudible 01:33:04], and stuff.
我不喜欢这种荷兰人的方法，但我经常洗热水澡，我喜欢热水澡，桑拿也不错。不过，我也不知道。而房屋所有权更有趣，因为我跟踪房价和其他东西，我知道发生了什么。即使有抵押贷款的杠杆作用，我认为把你所有的钱都放在ETF上，在不同的市场，指数基金和[听不见01：33：04]，等等。
Neil Witten (01:33:04): 尼尔维滕（01：33：04）：
For sure. I think academically or mathematically a hundred percent. But I think there’s that other side, which is back to where we-
当然了我认为在学术上或数学上是百分之百。但我认为还有另一面，那就是回到我们-
Pieter Levels (01:33:12):
Pieter Levels（01：33：12）：
Emotional. 情绪化
Neil Witten (01:33:12): 尼尔维滕（01：33：12）：
… in the conversation. Yeah, exactly. It’s back to, what do you need around you? What are our kind of instinctive needs and that sense of place there is whether that has to be manifested in a thing you own. I don’t know, but a sense. [inaudible 01:33:28].
…在谈话中。是啊又回到了你身边需要什么？什么是我们的本能需求和那种地方感，是否必须在你拥有的东西中表现出来。我不知道，但感觉。[2019 - 01 - 19 00：01：00]
Pieter Levels (01:33:28):
Pieter Levels（01：33：28）：
Yeah. Yeah. I think that the market is going to move towards more of that being in a rental Airbnb apartment experience for upper middle class, if you can afford it for tech workers and stuff. But I do understand the romance of buying a piece of land in Portugal on the coast and putting the foundations in and building a house. And I see my dad do it every day. So if you don’t see it as an investment thing, for sure. Yeah. But then it’s also this nice feeling to have all your money on your iPhone, in your broker app and a backpack and it’s all in the market and yeah, it’s all virtual.
是啊是啊我认为市场将更多地转向为中上阶层提供Airbnb公寓租赁体验，如果你能负担得起技术工人和其他人的话。但我确实理解在葡萄牙海岸边买一块地，打好地基，盖房子的浪漫。我看到我爸爸每天都这么做。所以如果你不把它看作是一种投资，那是肯定的。是啊但是，把你所有的钱都放在你的iPhone上，在你的经纪人应用程序和背包里，这也是一种很好的感觉，而且都在市场上，是的，都是虚拟的。
Pieter Levels (01:34:13):
彼得的水平（Pieter Levels）
There’s something good and bad about it. Something cool and not cool. And obviously if you do this minimalist, you’re dependent actually on society to function properly. If the apocalypse happens, you’re fucked because your apps not going to, internet’s not going to work. Electricity’s not going to work. And if you have a house, you can defend the house, and that’s absolutely valid counterargument, I think. And obviously minimalism is, it’s like a rich man or woman’s hobby. Right. If you don’t have the resources, you cannot be minimalist, it’s pretentious in a way, but I don’t do it for pretentious reasons. I do it yeah, just because it fits me. I think
它有好有坏。有酷也有不酷。很明显，如果你这样做，你实际上是依赖于社会正常运作。如果世界末日发生了，你就完蛋了，因为你的应用程序不会，互联网不会工作。电不会工作。如果你有房子，你可以保护房子，我认为这是绝对有效的反驳。很明显，极简主义就像是有钱人的爱好。对的如果你没有资源，你就不能成为极简主义者，这在某种程度上是自命不凡的，但我不是为了自命不凡的原因而这样做的。是的，只是因为它适合我。我想
Neil Witten (01:34:57): Neil Witten（尼尔·威顿）
We would normally at this point say, where do you want people to find you? But I’m wondering whether you actually do want people to find you. So I’m going to ask you if you want me to ask the question.
我们通常会在这一点上说，你想让人们在哪里找到你？但我想知道你是不是真的想让别人找到你。所以我要问你是否想让我问这个问题。
Pieter Levels (01:35:07):
Pieter Levels（01：35：07）：
Yeah. Yeah. So I’m on Twitter a lot. Mostly twitter.com/levels. L-E-V-E-L-S, IO, levelsIO. And this is where I tweet a lot and my main websites are nomadlist, nomadlist.com, remoteok.com and my new immigration service. If you want to move to Portugal is rebase.co, so dot C-O. What else? Inflationchart.com where I track inflation, pretty much, but it’s all my Twitter bio. So you can find it there.
是啊是啊所以我经常上推特。主要是twitter.com/levels。L-E-V-E-L-S，IO，级别IO。这就是我经常发推文的地方，我的主要网站是nomadlist，nomadlist.com，remoteok.com和我的新移民服务。如果你想搬到葡萄牙是rebase.co，所以点C-O。还有什麽？Inflationchart.com，我在那里追踪通货膨胀，基本上，但这都是我的Twitter生物。所以你可以在那里找到它。
Ray Richards (01:35:40): 雷理查兹（01：35：40）：
So I’m hoping that we’re all going to go off and do some IRLing.
所以我希望我们都能离开去做一些IRLing。
Pieter Levels (01:35:46):
Pieter Levels（01：35：46）：
I’ll [inaudible 01:35:48] Andre.
我会的，安德烈。
Ray Richards (01:35:49): 雷理查兹（01：35：49）：
I’m off to do some IRLing and I never knew I was going to do that so.
我要去做一些IRLing，我从来不知道我会这样做。
Neil Witten (01:35:55): 尼尔维滕（01：35：55）：
I’m going to go do some IRLing as well. Yeah. Fantastic.
我也要去做一些休闲活动。是啊棒了
Pieter Levels (01:35:56):
Pieter Levels（01：35：56）：
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. This is life coach. Okay. I’ll go IRL too.
好吧好吧是啊是啊我是生活教练。好吧我也要去IRL。
Neil Witten (01:36:00): 尼尔维滕（01：36：00）：
Would you say hello to Andre for me please? And say-
你能帮我向安德烈问好吗？说-
Pieter Levels (01:36:05):
Pieter Levels（01：36：05）：
Yes. Yes. For sure. 是的是的当然了
Neil Witten (01:36:06): 尼尔维滕（01：36：06）：
… say about how he featured in our conversation, which he’ll appreciate. I’m sure.
…说说他在我们谈话中的表现他会很感激的我确定
Ray Richards (01:36:09): 雷理查兹（01：36：09）：
Yeah. And we’ll see him in [inaudible 01:36:11].
是啊我们会看到他的声音。
Pieter Levels (01:36:10):
Pieter Levels（01：36：10）：
He always joke- 他总是开玩笑-
Neil Witten (01:36:11): 尼尔维滕（01：36：11）：
Yeah. Yeah. That right. 是啊是啊没错
Pieter Levels (01:36:15):
Pieter Levels（01：36：15）：
Neil, we always joke because during the acquisition, I think once you went to Lego Land and we’re always joking, like, oh, Neil’s always in Lego Land. Like meme kind.
尼尔，我们总是开玩笑，因为在收购期间，我想一旦你去了乐高乐园，我们总是开玩笑，比如，哦，尼尔总是在乐高乐园。就像模因一样。
Neil Witten (01:36:27): 尼尔维滕（01：36：27）：
Yeah. That sounds about right. I should go to Lego Land.
是啊听起来不错。我应该去乐高乐园。
Pieter Levels (01:36:31):
Pieter Levels（01：36：31）：
No, but you’re really, I think IRL and family focused and is a really good trade to have. And Andre was like, oh, I need to, because Andre has so much stress. He was like, because he’s Ukrainian. I think it’s like, he never trusts anything to properly work because in Ukraine doesn’t work properly. And he was like, this thing is going to fall through and blah, blah. And he wanted to get it done as fast as possible. And you were like, yeah, I’m in Lego Land now. And it was the two things, he’s like stressing. He wants to get the money and he’s in Lego Land, like chilling. And it’s like, it was so beautiful meme.
不，但你真的，我认为IRL和家庭为中心，是一个非常好的交易。安德烈说，哦，我需要，因为安德烈有这么多的压力。他说，因为他是乌克兰人。我认为这就像，他从来不相信任何东西能正常工作，因为在乌克兰不能正常工作。他就像是，这件事会失败之类的。他想尽快完成。你就说我现在在乐高乐园里两件事，他很紧张。他想弄到钱，他在乐高乐园里，就像在放松。就像，这是如此美丽的米姆。
Neil Witten (01:37:02): 尼尔维滕（01：37：02）：
I think I can even remember texting him from Lego Land, but feeding a little bit of his stress because I was thinking, oh man. But I also felt like I wanted to do the right thing by him as well. It’s really, it’s amazing.
我想我甚至还记得从乐高乐园给他发短信的情景，但我也给他带来了一点压力，因为我在想，哦，天哪，但我也觉得我想为他做正确的事情。这真的，这是惊人的。
Pieter Levels (01:37:15):
Pieter Levels（01：37：15）：
Yeah. Yeah. No, you did super proper. And it’s just really funny. Funny meme.
是啊是啊不，你做得很好。这真的很有趣搞笑表情包
Neil Witten (01:37:19): 尼尔维滕（01：37：19）：
Neil from Lego land. Ah, that’s great. I’m going to make [inaudible 01:37:22]. Also you should, if you haven’t done it already go and get slowmadlist.com.
乐高乐园的尼尔。啊，那太好了。我会去做的（听不见）。你也应该，如果你还没有这样做，已经去得到slowmadlist.com。
Pieter Levels (01:37:29):
Pieter Levels（01：37：29）：
Yes. Good point. 是的说得好
Neil Witten (01:37:30): 尼尔维滕（01：37：30）：
Because that’s clearly going to be your next thing or someone’s going to make it.
因为很明显这将是你的下一件事或者有人会做它。
Pieter Levels (01:37:33):
Pieter Levels（01：37：33）：
Yeah. I think Rebase is kind of like slowmadlist. Yeah.
是啊我认为Rebase有点像慢狂人。是啊
Ray Richards (01:37:35): 雷理查兹（01：37：35）：
Yeah. Well it’s becoming it. Maybe that’s what it gets rebranded to at.
是啊好吧，它正在变成它。也许这就是它被重新命名的原因。
Pieter Levels (01:37:39):
Pieter Levels（01：37：39）：
Yeah, maybe rebrand. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是啊，也许重塑品牌。是啊，是啊，是啊。
Ray Richards (01:37:41): 雷理查兹（01：37：41）：
Cool. 酷了
Pieter Levels (01:37:42):
Pieter Levels（01：37：42）：
Thanks so much for having me it. It was [inaudible 01:37:44].
谢谢你给我这个机会，这是[听不见的01：37：44]
Neil Witten (01:37:44): 尼尔维滕（01：37：44）：
Oh man. It’s been great. We’ve loved it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thanks Peter. We got them in then. Well, I’ll drop you a note on Telegram when we are ready to put it out. It’d probably be a couple of weeks or something.
哦，天哪。这太棒了。我们很喜欢。是的，是的。是啊谢谢彼得。我们把他们带进来了。好吧，当我们准备好发布它的时候，我会在Telegram上给你留言。可能要几个星期。
Pieter Levels (01:37:54):
Pieter Levels（01：37：54）：
Sure man. Yeah. It was really, really, really new. It was really, really good questions. Really. You’re really smart and yeah, it’s really cool.
当然。好的。它真的，真的，真的很新。这是非常非常好的问题。真的你真的很聪明，是的，这真的很酷。
Neil Witten (01:38:02): 尼尔维滕（01：38：02）：
Thanks man. 谢了
Ray Richards (01:38:03): 雷理查兹（01：38：03）：
Yeah. 是啊
Neil Witten (01:38:03): 尼尔维滕（01：38：03）：
We loved it. 我们很喜欢。
Speaker 1 (01:38:03): 发言人1（01：38：03）：
That’s it, folks. Show notes. Head over to the website at www.lifedonedifferent.ly where you’ll find links, a quick summary and you can also explore other conversations. If you enjoying this podcast, then please tell your friends, give us a good rating and remember to subscribe. We’re also really keen to hear your feedback. So please do let us know what you think and give us your ideas over on Twitter. You can tweet us at Lifedonediff, that’s double F.
就这样，伙计们。显示笔记。前往www.lifedonedifferent.ly网站，在那里你会发现链接，一个快速摘要，你也可以探索其他对话。如果你喜欢这个播客，那么请告诉你的朋友，给予我们一个好的评价，记得订阅。我们也非常希望听到您的反馈。所以请让我们知道你的想法，并在Twitter上给予我们你的想法。你可以在Lifedondiff上发推特给我们，那是双F。
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [01:39:00]
第四部分（共四个结局）
P.S. I’m on Twitter too if you’d like to follow more of my stories. And I wrote a book called MAKE about building startups without funding. See a list of my stories or contact me. To get an alert when I write a new blog post, you can subscribe below:
P.S.我也在Twitter上，如果你想关注我的更多故事。我写了一本书叫MAKE，是关于在没有资金的情况下建立初创公司的。查看我的故事列表或联系我。要在我写新博客文章时获得提醒，您可以在下面订阅：