After 4 years I finally got back on the Indie Hackers podcast. The last time, back in in 2018, time was very different. It was 2 years before COVID started, remote work was still quite fringe (especially outside of the tech/startup scene). Nomad List made “just” $15k/mo and Remote OK $5k/mo. My idea was remote work would go mainstream in 2035. Then COVID happened and everything changed.
4年后，我终于回到了Indie Hackers播客。上一次，回到2018年，时间非常不同。在COVID爆发前两年，远程工作仍然相当边缘化（特别是在科技/创业领域之外）。Nomad List“只是”$15k/mo和Remote OK $5k/mo。我的想法是远程工作将在2035年成为主流。然后COVID发生了，一切都改变了。

I talked with Courtland about all of this and more. I hope you enjoy reading it/listening to it! There’s two parts:
我和考特兰讨论了所有这些和更多。希望你喜欢阅读/听！有两个部分：

Part 1 第1部分

Courtland (00:06): Courtland（00：06）：
What’s up everybody. This is Courtland from indiehackers.com and you’re listening to the Indie Hackers Podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process, and on this show, I sit down with these Indie Hackers to discuss the ideas, the opportunities, and the strategies they’re taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same.
大家好啊我是来自indiehackers.com的考特兰，您正在收听的是独立黑客播客。比以往任何时候都多的人在网上开发很酷的东西，并在这个过程中赚了很多钱，在这个节目中，我和这些独立黑客坐下来讨论他们的想法，机会和策略，这样我们其他人就可以做同样的事情。

Courtland (00:28): Courtland（28）：
I’m here with Pieter Levels. He’s a man who needs very little introduction, but I’ll do one anyway. You’re the Founder of Nomad List, sort of the hub for digital nomads. You’re the founder of Remote OK, the biggest remote job board in the world, and you’re probably the primary inspiration for Indie Hackers itself. And I think it’s been like four years now, yeah, it’s been four years since you’ve been on the show. So this is your second time. How’s it going?
我和彼得·莱维在一起。他是一个不需要介绍的人，但我还是要做一个。你是Nomad List的创始人，有点像数字游牧民的中心。你是世界上最大的远程工作板Remote OK的创始人，你可能是独立黑客本身的主要灵感来源。我想现在已经四年了，是的，你已经四年没上这个节目了。所以这是你第二次了。你好吗？

Pieter (00:52): 彼得（00：52）：
I’m great, man. So nice to see you again. It feels like a century. It feels like we spoke last like a hundred years ago. It’s great to see you, man. I heard you’ve been living offline life recently, so that’s really nice to hear.
我很好，伙计。很高兴再次见到你。感觉像过了世纪。我们上次说话好像是一百年前。很高兴见到你，伙计。我听说你最近过着离线生活，所以听到这个消息真的很高兴。

Courtland (01:08): Courtland（01：08）：
I’ve been super chill. I’ve been much less of a workaholic than I’ve ever been in my entire life and honestly, it’s like disorienting, because I’m like, what do I do with myself? Like what do I do? And it’s hard to find hobbies and stuff because they sometimes don’t feel like as meaningful as doing like a crazy all in startup or being super passionate. I’m like, I guess I’m going to collect a lot of plants and water them. But I’m like, this feels pointless. So maybe I’ll get back into it soon.
我已经超级冷静了。我这辈子都没那么像个工作狂了老实说，这就像迷失方向，因为我想，我该怎么办？我该怎么办？而且很难找到爱好和东西，因为他们有时觉得没有像疯狂的创业或超级热情那样有意义。我想，我想我会收集很多植物并给它们浇水。但我觉得这毫无意义。所以也许我很快就会回来。

Pieter (01:31): 彼得（01：31）：
Oh so nice. Yeah. I know exactly the feeling you’re talking about. Yeah. I’ve been trying to slow down as well, repeatedly over the last few years, but I don’t know, man. It goes in cycles, right? Like you …
哦，太好了。是啊我很清楚你说的那种感觉。是啊我也试着放慢脚步，在过去的几年里反复地，但我不知道，伙计。这是循环往复的，对吧？喜欢你…

Courtland (01:43): Courtland（01：43）：
Yeah. 是啊

Pieter (01:44): 彼得（01：44）：
You go in these work times and then you feel like burned out. You’re like, oh my God, I work too much. And then you want to relax, but then you get bored because you’ve done real life and real life also gets boring after a while. So it’s like this endless dance, right?
你在这些工作时间去，然后你觉得像烧毁了。你就像，天哪，我工作太多了。然后你想放松，但你会感到无聊，因为你已经经历了真实的生活，而真实的生活过一段时间后也会变得无聊。就像是无休止的舞蹈，对吧？

Courtland (01:57): Courtland（01：57）：
Yeah. Yeah. You just switching one to the other, although you’re like, I don’t view you as like a cyclic person, because it’s like, what were you talking about last week? You’re like, oh I’ve, I’ve realized that I’ve shipped for a thousand days straight on the work in progress community. So it’s like literally not a single day in the last thousand days have you missed.
是啊是啊你只是把一个换到另一个，虽然你会说，我不认为你是一个循环的人，因为它就像，你上周在说什么？你就像，哦，我已经，我已经意识到，我已经连续一千天在进步社区的工作。所以在过去的一千天里你没有错过一天。

Pieter (02:13): 彼得（02：13）：
Yeah. 是啊

Courtland (02:14): Courtland（02：14）：
And that’s real consistency.
这就是真实的一致性。

Pieter (02:17): 彼得（02：17）：
Yeah. 是啊

Courtland (02:17): Courtland（02：17）：
I feel like I’ve had that for like maybe 34 years. I’d rather from probably like age eight to 34 and then just like …
我觉得我已经拥有它大概34年了。我宁愿从大概8岁到34岁，然后就像…

Pieter (02:26): 彼得（02：26）：
Wait from H eight to age 34, you’ve been working nonstop?
从8岁到34岁，你一直在不停地工作？

Courtland (02:29): Courtland（02：29）：
Basically. 基本上

Pieter (02:30): 彼得（02：30）：
Wow. 哇哦

Courtland (02:30): 考特兰（02：30）：
Age eight was like, I want to get into MIT, and then it was like work super hard, a brief stint where I was like, I want to become a professional StarCraft player, and then I realized I wasn’t as good as all the Koreans and then back just working and then graduating college, startup grind, and then eventually Indie Hackers and grinding on that. And then six months ago was the first time like what if I just chilled out?
八岁的时候，我想进入麻省理工学院，然后就像超级努力工作，我想成为一名专业的星际争霸玩家，然后我意识到我不如所有的韩国人，然后回来只是工作，然后大学毕业，创业磨，然后最终独立黑客和磨。六个月前是我第一次如果我冷静下来呢？

Pieter (02:51): 彼得（02：51）：
Yeah. I think I’m exactly the same actually. Yeah. Something like from like seven or eight. Yeah. That’s already when the ambition started for us, I guess. Yeah.
是啊我想我其实也一样。是啊大概七八岁吧是啊我想，我们的雄心壮志就已经开始了。是啊

Courtland (03:01): 考特兰（03：01）：
It’s kind of like, what’s the meaning of all of it, right? Are you driven by some outcome that you’re trying to achieve by being so ambitious? Or is this a thing that you just have to do for its own sake? Even if you weren’t making any money or you weren’t becoming famous, because you have so many projects that are so successful, that make millions of dollars, you have tons of fans, you’re tweeting constantly. Is that the point?
这就像，这一切的意义是什么，对吧？你是不是被一些你试图通过雄心勃勃来实现的结果所驱使？或者这是一件你为了自己而必须做的事情？即使你没有赚到钱，或者你没有成名，因为你有很多非常成功的项目，赚了数百万美元，你有很多粉丝，你不断地发推文。这就是重点吗

Pieter (03:23): 彼得（03：23）：
Yeah. I think it’s a really good question. And I think we’re in a very similar situation where you probably don’t do it as much for the money anymore, because you probably are quite financially stable and you generally want to do it because you like the process, like to do something with your day, you like to wake up for something and you like to have this daily challenge where something doesn’t work or a competitor who’s trying to take over who is getting better than you. You want to have a goal in each day, and that goal can spend for weeks and months, right? But you want to have something you’re working towards to, and I feel like I’ve spoken to a lot of people that are older that are not in startups and don’t have their own business and stuff, and a lot of them are really happy. Some of them tell me that they miss that thing we have, like this meaningful pursuits, that’s probably unhealthy, it’s not really healthy. I think it’s meant to be unhealthy pursuit because a lot of people want to do it, they get into business or startups, but it’s really mentally taxing I think. And you need to be a little-
是啊我觉得这是个好问题。我认为我们处于一个非常相似的情况，你可能不再为了钱而做那么多，因为你可能在经济上相当稳定，你通常想做，因为你喜欢这个过程，喜欢在你的一天里做一些事情，你喜欢为某件事而醒来，你喜欢每天都有这样的挑战，当某件事不起作用时，或者当竞争对手试图接管时，比你好你想每天都有一个目标，这个目标可以持续几周甚至几个月，对吗？但是你想拥有你正在努力的东西，我觉得我已经和很多年龄较大的人谈过了，他们没有创业，没有自己的生意和东西，他们中的很多人真的很开心。他们中的一些人告诉我，他们怀念我们所拥有的东西，比如这些有意义的追求，这可能是不健康的，不是真正健康的。 我认为这是一种不健康的追求，因为很多人都想做这件事，他们进入商业或创业公司，但我认为这真的是一种精神负担。 你需要有点-

Courtland (04:25): Courtland（04：25）：
It can be an obsession.
这可能是一种痴迷。

Pieter (04:26): 彼得（04：26）：
It’s an obsession. If you want to win, you need to be obsessed. Like look at Elon Musk, right? He’s completely obsessed. He can barely keep relationships going. So it’s not that really [inaudible 00:04:37], but like it gives you some kind of meaningful thing that’s different than watching Netflix, you know?
这是一种痴迷。如果你想赢，你需要被迷住。比如Elon Musk，对吧？他完全被迷住了。他几乎不能维持关系。所以这不是真的[听不见00：04：37]，但就像它给你一些有意义的东西，这是不同于看Netflix的，你知道吗？

Courtland (04:45): 考特兰（04：45）：
Yeah. I don’t know. I think meaning often comes from doing things that are hard. Like if you’re doing something that’s entirely hedonistic and it just feels good the whole time, it’s hard to ascribe it meaning, even if it’s helpful, but when there’s like a part of it that’s a little bit self-sacrificial and you know it would be easier to do something else and you’re still doing, I think it forces you to dig and try to find some deeper reason why you’re doing this thing that’s hard, and that’s often like where you discover meaning.
是啊我不知道我认为意义往往来自于做困难的事情。就像如果你在做一件完全享乐主义的事情，而且一直感觉很好，很难赋予它意义，即使它是有帮助的，但是当它的一部分有点自我牺牲的时候，你知道做别的事情会更容易，你仍然在做，我认为这会迫使你去挖掘并试图找到一些更深层次的原因，为什么你要做这件困难的事情，而这往往就像你发现意义的地方。

Pieter (05:09): 彼得（05：09）：
Yeah. And the hedonistic aspects like foods or sex or whatever, they all, you adapt to them really fast. Right?
是啊而享乐主义的方面，如食物或性或任何东西，他们都，你适应他们真的很快。对不对？

Courtland (05:18): 考特兰（05：18）：
Yeah. 是啊

Pieter (05:18): 彼得（05：18）：
Like if you don’t have them, you want them, you’re hungry. If you have them, you’re like, okay, this was nice. And then you open your laptop again. You’re like, let’s go make something, right? Or I don’t know, if you’re a painter, you start painting. So I think because of the frame of the problem keeps changing and is like perpetual, it never bores generally because the problem never ends, which is also the tiring part of it. You’re like when is this business going to end? When do I reach the goal? Because you know musicians, they always finish an album and then they’re done. They can do the tour and they’re done, and it feels really nice. Like I used to do that. And with a startup, with business, you keep going. Like when does it end? When you sell, when you exit.
就像如果你没有，你想要，你饿了。如果你有他们，你会说，好吧，这很好。然后你再次打开笔记本电脑。你就像，我们去做点什么，对吧？或者我不知道，如果你是一个画家，你开始画画。所以我认为，因为问题的框架不断变化，就像是永恒的，它永远不会无聊，因为问题永远不会结束，这也是它令人厌倦的部分。你想，这件事什么时候会结束？我什么时候能达到目标？因为你知道音乐家，他们总是完成一张专辑，然后他们完成了。他们可以做巡回演出，他们完成了，这感觉真的很好。就像我以前那样。有了创业公司，有了生意，你就能继续前进。什么时候结束？当你卖出的时候，当你退出的时候。

Courtland (06:02): 考特兰（06：02）：
Well you’ve done what, I think you had another tweet where you’re talking about like how many projects that you shipped and you said that-
好吧，你做了什么，我想你有另一个推文，你在那里谈论你运送了多少项目，你说-

Pieter (06:08): 彼得（06：08）：
Yeah, I calculated. It was like 70 or something.
是的，我计算过了。好像有70年左右。

Courtland (06:11): 考特兰（06：11）：
Yeah. More than 70 projects. You said only four out of 70 plus projects that you ever did made any money and grew, which means that you have something like a 95% failure rate and a hit rate of the only like 5%.
是啊70多个项目。你说你做过的70多个项目中只有4个赚钱并成长，这意味着你有95%的失败率和5%的命中率。

Pieter (06:23): 彼得（06：23）：
That’s right. Which is crazy. It’s insane.
没错.这太疯狂了太疯狂了

Courtland (06:27): 考特兰（06：27）：
Like in a way, yeah, how much of your success with all the projects do you think comes from just being this relentless shipper, which almost no one is. Almost no one has like 70 projects they’ve really tried to ship. And how much of it comes from being like a strategic mastermind, having the right business strategy, because you have a pretty solid business background and education too.
就像在某种程度上，是的，你认为你在所有项目中的成功有多少来自于成为这个无情的托运人，几乎没有人是这样的。几乎没有人有像70个项目，他们真的试图船舶。而其中有多少来自于像一个战略策划者，有正确的商业战略，因为你有一个相当坚实的商业背景和教育太多。

Pieter (06:45): 彼得（06：45）：
Well, this is obviously biased, but I do get tired from the, it’s like the current side guys in America where it’s everything is luck. If you’re successful, it’s luck. It’s completely your upbringing and your background. I do think that’s a part of it is definitely some percentage is like maybe 40 or 50 or something. But what you see from this example, when you need to keep trying for loads of times, like 70 times or more, 100 times, and you might get a few successes and if you try once, it’s probably not going to work because the odds are not there. And I mean, I’m not a mathematician or statistician, but I do believe that if you keep try trying something, you can somehow, you don’t change the odds, but you keep playing the odds and there must be a statistical fallacy in this, but I do think your rate of maybe getting success gets higher, I think, when you keep trying.
好吧，这显然是有偏见的，但我确实厌倦了，就像现在的美国人，一切都是运气。如果你成功了，那是运气。这完全是你的成长和你的背景。我确实认为这是其中的一部分，肯定是某个百分比，可能是40或50左右。但是你从这个例子中看到的是，当你需要不断尝试很多次，比如70次或更多，100次，你可能会获得一些成功，如果你尝试一次，它可能不会成功，因为几率不存在。我的意思是，我不是一个数学家或统计学家，但我相信，如果你不断尝试，你可以在某种程度上，你不会改变的几率，但你继续玩的几率，这肯定有一个统计学上的谬误，但我确实认为你的成功率可能会更高，我认为，当你不断尝试。

Courtland (07:32): 考特兰（07：32）：
Yeah. I think so too, because I mean you’re building skills and stuff. It’s not like you’re just rolling the same set of dice. It’s like you’re rolling the same-
是啊我也这么认为，因为我的意思是你正在培养技能和东西。你又不是在玩同一套骰子。就像你在做同样的事-

Pieter (07:38): 彼得（07：38）：
That’s it yeah. 就这样。

Courtland (07:42): 考特兰（07：42）：
You’re a little bit better, where you figure out the physics of the dice, because you failed a bunch of startups so you’re like, okay, don’t do that mistake again or I really don’t like these types of projects.
你更好一点，你弄清楚骰子的物理原理，因为你失败了一堆创业公司，所以你想，好吧，不要再犯同样的错误，或者我真的不喜欢这种类型的项目。

Pieter (07:47): 彼得（07：47）：
That’s exactly. That solves the [inaudible 00:07:49] problem I had. If you increase the skills, the odds next to them will be better, and that builds up and it adds up and also I guess, network, right? I don’t have a network, you probably have more network than me, I’m just on Twitter, mostly, because I’m fully remote around the world and stuff. So you also increase the people you know, and you get more known so you can tweet about stuff and then people DM you like, oh we’d love to, as a company, we’d love to use your product or something. That also helps, right?
正是如此这就解决了我遇到的问题。如果你提高技能，他们旁边的机会会更好，这建立起来，它加起来，我想，网络，对吧？我没有网络，你可能比我有更多的网络，我只是在Twitter上，主要是因为我在世界各地完全偏远的东西。所以你也增加了你认识的人，你得到了更多的了解，所以你可以推东西，然后人们DM你喜欢，哦，我们很乐意，作为一个公司，我们很乐意使用你的产品或东西。这也有帮助，对吧？

Courtland (08:15): 考特兰（08：15）：
Yeah. You just keep incurring advantages. And so I guess maybe the thing to do is to try to figure out how to put yourself in a position where you can do 70 plus projects.
是啊你只是不断地获得优势。所以我想也许要做的事情是试着弄清楚如何让自己处于一个可以做70多个项目的位置。

Pieter (08:24): 彼得（08：24）：
Yeah. 是啊

Courtland (08:25): 考特兰（08：25）：
Because I don’t think everyone can do that. Like maybe they don’t have the motivation or they don’t have like the financial sort of freedom and independence to do that. But if you can keep doing that, eventually you will have one or two wins.
因为我不认为每个人都能做到。也许他们没有动力，或者他们没有经济上的自由和独立去做这件事。但如果你能继续这样做，最终你会有一个或两个胜利。

Pieter (08:36): 彼得（08：36）：
Yeah. I think if you’re in university, that was for me the main time where I did so many projects and that was a great time because in Holland you get like $250 a month for free from the government, back then I think, they call study financing and you don’t have to pay it back and you can borrow some money from the government too for really low rates, and you’re pretty much just doing lectures, you’re going to university. And all the time you have, apart from that, I think it’s same in American college, you can work on side projects.
是啊我想如果你在大学里，那是我做很多项目的主要时间，那是一段美好的时光，因为在荷兰，你每个月可以从政府那里免费获得250美元，我想，他们称之为学习资助，你不必偿还，你也可以从政府那里借一些钱，利率很低，你基本上只是在做讲座，你要上大学了除此之外，我想在美国大学里也是一样的，你可以做一些副业。

Courtland (09:04): 考特兰（09：04）：
I think I probably spent my college years partying mostly the first couple years-
我想我大学的头几年大部分时间都在派对上度过-

Pieter (09:08): 彼得（09：08）：
Yeah. Me too. 是啊我也是

Courtland (09:09): 考特兰（09：09）：
Then it’s like I’m going to do startups, and just like trying to do random startups. Because you have so much time.
然后就像我要做创业，就像尝试做随机创业。因为你有很多时间。

Pieter (09:18): 彼得（09：18）：
Me too, it was a good mix. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have so much time. That’s the perfect time to start a lot of stuff.
我也是，这是一个很好的组合。是的，是的。你有这么多时间。这是开始很多事情的最佳时机。

Courtland (09:22): 考特兰（09：22）：
You mentioned this sort of like pervasive attitude and I think maybe it’s just the United States, I don’t know, because I haven’t traveled in years where it’s kind of like everything you do is luck, and no matter what you do, you can’t be proud of what you’ve done because it was a result of your privilege or upbringing, your parents’ money or whatever. And that is kind of like a demotivating, I don’t really like that perspective because even if, let’s just say hypothetically speaking, it’s true, what’s the result of saying that, right? It doesn’t necessarily motivate anyone to work any harder. It just motivates everyone to just to give up, I think. It like kind of like a-
你提到了这种普遍的态度，我想可能只是美国，我不知道，因为我已经很多年没有去过那里了，那里的人认为你所做的一切都是运气，无论你做什么，你都不能为你所做的感到骄傲，因为这是你的特权或教养，你父母的钱或其他什么的结果。这有点让人泄气，我不太喜欢这种观点，因为即使，我们假设一下，这是真的，那么说的结果是什么，对吗？这并不一定能激励任何人更加努力地工作。我想，这只会激励每个人去给予。就像是-

Pieter (09:53): 彼得（09：53）：
Hundred percent. Yeah. It increases bitterness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
百分之百。是啊它会增加苦味。是啊是啊是啊

Courtland (09:56): 考特兰（09：56）：
Yeah. It increases bitterness. Maybe it increases compassion, I think is like kind of the idea, like the good thing about it, but it decreases I think motivation because it’s like, well, if you weren’t born to a good circumstance, you’re fucked. You might as well give up. And if you were, you have no reason to push hard and work on anything because you can’t be proud of it.
是啊它会增加苦味。也许它增加了同情心，我认为这是一种想法，就像它的好处一样，但它减少了我认为的动力，因为它就像，嗯，如果你不是出生在一个好的环境中，你就完蛋了。你还不如给予。如果你是，你没有理由努力工作，因为你不能为此感到自豪。

Pieter (10:13): 彼得（10：13）：
Yeah. A hundred percent. 是啊百分之百。

Courtland (10:13): 考特兰（10：13）：
I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like it’s hard for people to hold two ideas in mind, and it’s like the two ideas I think you want to hold in mind is like having compassion for people who came from backgrounds where it’s just harder to succeed, but simultaneously having optimism that like you still can make it. That optimism is pretty important because without it, you’re saying like, what is literally, why would you even try if you didn’t think it was possible? Like you need some degree of optimism, and sometimes I feel like that’s missing, you know?
我不知道有时候我觉得人们很难同时记住两个想法，就像我认为你应该记住的两个想法，就像对那些来自更难成功的背景的人有同情心，但同时又有乐观的态度，就像你仍然可以成功。这种乐观是非常重要的，因为没有它，你会说，字面上的意思是，如果你觉得不可能为什么还要尝试就像你需要某种程度的乐观，有时我觉得这是失踪，你知道吗？

Pieter (10:39): 彼得（10：39）：
Yeah. I think it’s missing in a lot of parts in America. I think where you see it is in Asia, though. In Asia, where I spend a lot of my time, the ambition is insane and Asia has all of its own problems, for sure, but there’s this massive ambition to get ahead, get wealthy, get successful, that you don’t see in America, especially I think lesser and less or so. And we should kind of not go into politics too much, but look at all the hate Elon Musk gets. I think it’s quite crazy because he wants to bring us to Mars and works his ass off to do this and yeah, he’s the richest guy on earth, but he doesn’t even spend his money. He doesn’t spend it on a lavish life, he just sleeps in the factory and he does so much stuff obviously, does some bad things, probably, in the factory, I don’t know, but this seems like a net benefit guy to society and gets a lot of slack for just getting us to Mars. So I think that’s kind of another strange data point.
是啊我觉得在美国很多地方都缺少这一点。我认为你在亚洲看到的是。在亚洲，我花了很多时间，野心是疯狂的，亚洲有自己的所有问题，当然，但有这种巨大的野心要出人头地，变得富有，获得成功，你在美国看不到，特别是我认为越来越少。我们不应该过多地涉足政治，但看看埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）得到的所有仇恨。我认为这很疯狂，因为他想把我们带到火星上，为此他拼命工作，是的，他是地球上最富有的人，但他甚至不花他的钱。他没有把钱花在奢侈的生活上，他只是睡在工厂里，他显然做了很多事情，可能做了一些坏事，在工厂里，我不知道，但这似乎是一个对社会有益的人，只是为了让我们去火星。所以我认为这是另一个奇怪的数据点。

Courtland (11:38): 考特兰（11：38）：
Do you feel like you get that kind of reaction from people? I mean you’re way more active on Twitter than I am. Like you’re tweeting about everything that you’re doing. And so you’ve got a lot of fans, and people who follow what you’re up to, you publish your revenue numbers and stuff so people know exactly how much money you make. Like it’s easy to put you like in this rich guy category, do you get, obviously like on a smaller scale, but the same kind of criticisms that someone like Elon Musk gets?
你觉得人们会有这样的反应吗？你在推特上比我活跃多了就像你在推特上发布你做的每件事。所以你有很多粉丝，人们都在关注你，你公布了你的收入数字和东西，这样人们就知道你到底赚了多少钱。就像很容易把你放在这个富人类别，你得到了，显然是在一个较小的规模，但同样的批评，像埃隆马斯克得到的人？

Pieter (12:00): Pieter（12：00）：
Yeah. I think I had it a few years ago. I started aggressively muting people and I had this robot, which if I mute a person, they would also remove them as a follower. So they would be like shouting into the void and they would obviously be monitoring what I tweet because they followed me. But then they wouldn’t notice that it automatically removed them as a follower. So I slowly removed hundreds of these people and I honestly, I don’t really get that anymore. I hardly get, and it’s really cleaned up everything. It really helped. And I don’t want to block, I don’t like blocking so much, obviously I’ve blocked in the past, but generally the replies I get are quite positive these days. So it really got a lot better. I don’t know if it just got better for me or for everybody.
是啊我想我几年前就有了。我开始积极地让人们静音，我有这个机器人，如果我让一个人静音，他们也会把他们作为追随者。所以他们会像对着虚空大喊，他们显然会监视我发的微博，因为他们关注了我。但他们不会注意到，它会自动删除他们的关注者身份。所以我慢慢地删除了数百个这样的人，老实说，我真的不明白了。我几乎不明白，它真的把一切都清理干净了。真的很有帮助我不想阻止，我不喜欢阻止这么多，显然我已经阻止了过去，但一般来说，我得到的答复是相当积极的这些天。所以真的好多了。我不知道是对我好还是对大家好。

Courtland (12:39): 考特兰（12：39）：
Yeah, it’s funny because when you block people or you’re like removing people, it’s like, you’re kind of creating your own echo chamber, which is-
是的，这很有趣，因为当你阻止人们或你喜欢删除的人，这就像，你有点创造自己的回音室，这是-

Pieter (12:47): 彼得（12：47）：
A hundred percent. Yeah. 百分之百。是啊

Courtland (12:47): 考特兰（12：47）：
A quote unquote bad thing with the internet. You don’t want to create an echo chamber, you want a variety of opinions, but it’s like, well how big of a variety do you want? Do you want to sign on every day and see a bunch of haters? Not really.
这是互联网上的一件非常糟糕的事情。你不想创造一个回音室，你想要各种各样的意见，但它就像，那么多大的变化，你想要的？你想每天都看到一群讨厌的人吗？不尽然

Pieter (12:58): 彼得（12：58）：
If people are a hostile, it can really get to you. You know that. You always remember the hateful comments and you can have 99 good comments and you always remember the haters. So it can be psychologically taxing if you’re working really hard on something and you just get all these negative comments. So I agree with this echo bubble though, but I don’t mute, I try to not mute just negative replies. I try to mute like really the hater kind of comments.
如果人们是敌对的，它真的可以得到你。你知道的你总是记得那些可恶的评论，你可以有99个好的评论，你总是记得那些讨厌的人。所以，如果你真的很努力地做某件事，却得到所有这些负面评论，这可能会让你心理负担很重。所以我同意这个回声泡沫，但我不静音，我试着不静音只是负面的回复。我试着把那些讨厌的评论静音。

Courtland (13:27): 考特兰（13：27）：
There’s another topic that I think is interesting, essentially, because you are Pieter Levels, you travel all over, you have kind of your finger on the pulse of like what’s going on internationally. I have no idea how ambitious are people in Asia compared to how people are in Europe.
还有一个我认为很有趣的话题，本质上，因为你是Pieter Levels，你到处旅行，你对国际上发生的事情了如指掌。我不知道亚洲人和欧洲人相比有多雄心勃勃。

Pieter (13:40): 彼得（13：40）：
Yeah. 是啊

Courtland (13:41): 考特兰（13：41）：
I have no idea. I’m just like kind of stuck in my bubble. So like you’re living in what, you’re in Thailand right now. What do you see in Thailand? What motivated you to move to Thailand? And you’re also doing this new project Rebase that I sort of intentionally tried to learn very little about so I can learn about it from you.
我不知道我就像是被困在我的泡泡里。所以你现在就住在泰国。你在泰国看到了什么？是什么促使你搬到泰国？你还在做一个新的项目，Rebase，我有点故意想了解得很少，所以我可以从你那里学到它。

Pieter (13:56): 彼得（13：56）：
Yeah. So I actually live in Portugal now. So during COVID happened, I mean COVID is absolutely terrible. Two years ago, I was in Asia too, and with Andre, we also had on the podcast, Mark from Bay List and stuff. And COVID started happening Asia, so I flew back to Holland, stayed with my parents for like a few, I think, five months or something. And then I started traveling again with Mark because we were not tax residents in Holland anymore. We were not residents anymore. So if we stayed over six months, we’d become a tax resident. We didn’t want to do that. So we had to leave. So we went on a road trip to Europe and we ended up in Portugal and it was very, like, I’d never been in Portugal. I’d heard kind of Portugal, if you’re European, you know about Spain and Italy and stuff, but you don’t really hear about Portugal.
是啊我现在住在葡萄牙。所以在COVID发生期间，我的意思是COVID绝对是可怕的。两年前，我也在亚洲，和安德烈一起，我们也在播客上，马克从海湾名单和东西。新冠病毒开始在亚洲蔓延，所以我飞回荷兰，和我父母住了几个月，我想，五个月左右。然后我又开始和马克一起旅行，因为我们不再是荷兰的纳税居民了。我们不再是居民了。所以如果我们呆了六个月以上，我们就成了纳税居民。我们不想那么做所以我们不得不离开。所以我们去了一趟欧洲，最后去了葡萄牙，感觉很像，我从来没有去过葡萄牙。我听说过葡萄牙，如果你是欧洲人，你知道西班牙和意大利之类的，但你真的没有听说过葡萄牙。

Pieter (14:44): 彼得（14：44）：
It’s like a small country next to Spain. It was COVID so you couldn’t really do a lot of stuff. So we ended up in a seaside village near Lisbon, which is the capital, and we lived there and every day we’d go for walks on the beach and we’d have some coffee and we’d just kind of work from there. And I started also meeting other like nomad people kind of from Bali, who also move to Portugal and stuff. And I started seeing, oh, this is kind of like a thing that’s happened because of COVID Asia is closed now, so a lot of people are moving, would go to Bali in the winter and stuff are now going to Portugal and stuff, and Spain and Mexico, and a lot of Americans would also go to Mexico, for example.
就像西班牙旁边的一个小国。当时是新冠肺炎，所以你不能做很多事情。所以我们最后来到了首都里斯本附近的一个海滨村庄，我们住在那里，每天我们都会去海滩散步，喝点咖啡，然后在那里工作。我也开始认识一些来自巴厘岛的游牧民族，他们也搬到了葡萄牙之类的地方。我开始看到，哦，这有点像是因为新冠肺炎而发生的事情，亚洲现在关闭了，所以很多人都在搬家，冬天去巴厘岛，现在去葡萄牙，西班牙和墨西哥，很多美国人也会去墨西哥。

Pieter (15:22): 彼得（15：22）：
So anyway, I’m in Portugal and I’m meeting all these people and they’re all saying like, we’re also becoming residents here. I’m like, why would you become a resident here? They’re like, well, because we’re nomads. So we have this problem, where do we pay tax? Because we’re always moving from place to place and we’re never a resident anywhere. And it’s very difficult. So these people were becoming residents in Portugal, they were becoming real like Portuguese residents and setting up their base kind of, and paying tax and becoming part of Portugal culture, because there was not much you could do with COVID. Still, you cannot really travel much, especially not to Asia. Asia is still kind of closed. So I tried the same thing. I became a Portuguese resident and now I live there and I rent my own place in Lisbon. I have a lot of friends there and since I’ve been there, it’s been exploding like crazy it’s very often like number one on Nomad List. I didn’t change anything. It’s just what it is. A lot of people are going there.
总之，我在葡萄牙遇到了很多人，他们都说，我们也要成为这里的居民了。我就想，你为什么要来这里做住院医生？他们就像，嗯，因为我们是游牧民族。所以我们有这个问题，我们在哪里交税？因为我们总是从一个地方搬到另一个地方，我们从来不是任何地方的居民。这很难所以这些人成为葡萄牙的居民，他们成为真实的葡萄牙居民，建立他们的基地，纳税，成为葡萄牙文化的一部分，因为你对新冠肺炎无能为力。不过，你真的不能经常旅行，尤其是不能去亚洲。亚洲仍然是封闭的。所以我也试了同样的方法。我成了葡萄牙居民，现在我住在那里，我在里斯本租了自己的房子。我在那里有很多朋友，自从我去了那里，它就像疯了一样爆炸，它经常是流浪者名单上的第一名。我什么都没改变。 就是这样很多人会去那里。

Courtland (16:19): 考特兰（16：19）：
So as a Portuguese resident, you don’t pay any taxes to like, you’re Dutch, you’re not paying any taxes to the Netherlands?
所以作为一个葡萄牙居民，你不需要缴纳任何税款，你是荷兰人，你不需要向荷兰缴纳任何税款？

Pieter (16:26): 彼得（16：26）：
I mean, European governments, western European comes are very strict. So if you want to leave your country, you really need to leave and stay away. America’s just as strict, America’s more strict even with the international tax stuff. But if you say like, okay, I’m going to nomad, your home country’s always going to tax you unless you say like, okay, I don’t live in my home country anymore. I’m going to live somewhere else. So yeah, Portugal’s a great base for that, and a lot of nomads have been doing that. So yeah. I built a website about that, which is called a rebate.co, rebase.C-O, which is the first it’s kind of inspired by Stripe Atlas, you kind of work for Stripe, so you know Atlas very well. Stripe Atlas is like a service to create a company online really easily. So they kind of make the whole process of creating company much more easy with lawyers and stuff. And I did the same thing, but for immigration. So I smoothed out the whole immigration process to move to Portugal, showing all the benefits of Portugal and that’s been taken off now as well.
我的意思是，欧洲政府，西欧来是非常严格的。所以如果你想离开你的国家，你真的需要离开并远离。美国也一样严格，甚至在国际税收方面也更严格。但是如果你说，好吧，我要去流浪，你的祖国总是会对你征税，除非你说，好吧，我不再住在我的祖国了。我要去别的地方住。所以，是的，葡萄牙是一个很好的基地，很多游牧民族一直在这样做。所以是的。我为此建立了一个网站，叫做rebate.co，rebase.C-O，这是第一个它的灵感来自Stripe Atlas，你在Stripe工作，所以你非常了解Atlas。Stripe Atlas就像是一个在线创建公司的服务。所以他们让创建公司的整个过程变得更加容易，律师和其他人。我也做了同样的事，但是为了移民。 所以我顺利完成了整个移民过程，搬到了葡萄牙，展示了葡萄牙的所有好处，现在也被取消了。

Courtland (17:26): 考特兰（17：26）：
Yeah. It’s interesting to me the way that you work on projects. You’re talking about musicians that put out an album and it’s like this very final thing, and now they’re done with it and they can just sort of go on tour. And with me and Indie Hackers, for example, I’ve never had anything like that. I’ve just continued to work on Indie Hackers as this monolithic thing. But you have like all these different projects, like you have Nomad List.
是啊我对你做项目的方式很感兴趣。你说的是音乐家们出了一张专辑，这就像是最后一件事，现在他们已经完成了，他们可以开始巡回演出了。例如，对于我和独立黑客来说，我从来没有过这样的经历。我只是继续工作在独立黑客作为这个整体的东西。但是你有所有这些不同的项目，比如你有流浪者名单。

Pieter (17:47): 彼得（17：47）：
I think it’s like ADHD maybe.
我想这可能是多动症。

Courtland (17:50): 考特兰（17：50）：
Yeah. Yeah. Like you’re like, okay done with that, on the next thing. Should you get some of that hit of like I finished maybe, but are you ever really finished? Could you work Rebase into Nomad List? They’re so related. They’re both about digital nomads. Why make a separate project? Why not just be like, okay, here’s another branch of Nomad List.
是啊是啊就像你说，好了，下一件事。你应该得到一些像我这样的打击，也许完成了，但你真的完成了吗？你能把Rebase转换成Nomad List吗？他们是如此相关。它们都是关于数字游牧民的。为什么要做一个单独的项目？为什么不直接说，好吧，这是流浪者名单的另一个分支。

Pieter (18:07): 彼得（18：07）：
Honestly, I think these separate projects they launch better, right? Because if you make a sub page on Indie Hackers or Nomad List, people are like, ah, you made a sub page, but it’s not really a new business. But if you call it a new business with a new domain name and a new landing page, people are like, wow, this is like a new-
老实说，我认为这些单独的项目他们更好地启动，对不对？因为如果你在Indie Hackers或Nomad List上做了一个子页面，人们会说，啊，你做了一个子页面，但这并不是一个真正的新业务。但如果你称之为一个新的业务与一个新的域名和一个新的着陆页，人们喜欢，哇，这就像一个新的-

Courtland (18:22): 考特兰（18：22）：
Look at this new thing.
看看这个新东西。

Pieter (18:23): 彼得（18：23）：
That’s also marketing, right? And you can always integrate it later. So I think it’s kind of like a trick, but I think this is, it’s the same with Remote OK. Remote OK started as a page on Nomad List, like Nomad Jobs, but then I realized like 90% of remote work jobs are not nomads, they’re like people that just like stay at home moms or stay at home dads they’re they just want to have a work from home job. So I split it off into its own website. And I think here it’s the same case because this seems to be targeted at people that are kind of at the end of their nomad journey. They’ve been around the world for a few years and they’re like, okay, this is unsustainable. Or at least this is unsustainable in a legal way, in a tax way, and I want to build up a little bit of a base so I can still travel, but I have this Portugal thing and I live here and I get healthcare, for example, from Portuguese government and I pay tax. I think that’s kind of what it is.
这也是营销，对吧？你可以在以后整合它。所以我认为这有点像一个技巧，但我认为这是，这是相同的远程OK。Remote OK一开始是Nomad List上的一个页面，就像Nomad Jobs一样，但后来我意识到90%的远程工作都不是Nomad，他们就像是呆在家里的妈妈或爸爸，他们只是想有一份在家工作。所以我把它分成了自己的网站。我认为这是同样的情况，因为这似乎是针对那些在他们的游牧之旅结束的人。他们在世界各地已经有几年了，他们就像，好吧，这是不可持续的。或者至少这在法律的方面是不可持续的，在税收方面，我想建立一个基础，这样我就可以继续旅行，但我有葡萄牙的事情，我住在这里，我得到医疗保健，例如，从葡萄牙政府，我纳税。我觉得就是这样。

Courtland (19:16): 考特兰（19：16）：
Yeah. I’m reading through the list because you have a list of benefits for why people should live in Portugal. The first one is the McDonald’s in Portugal has the Royal Deluxe and the Big Tasty Double.
是啊我阅读通过列表，因为你有一个列表的好处，为什么人们应该住在葡萄牙。第一个是麦当劳在葡萄牙有皇家豪华和大美味双。

Pieter (19:28): 彼得（19：28）：
I put that in as a joke, but then I accidentally deployed it to GitHub. So now it’s on there.
我把它作为一个笑话，但后来我不小心把它部署到GitHub。所以现在它在那里。

Courtland (19:36): 考特兰（19：36）：
0% tax on foreign income, 0% tax on crypto, 0% tax on wealth. So this is all very attractive for entrepreneurs who are like, okay, I’m trying to like make money and build something. This seems pretty like a pretty good place to go.
0%的外国收入税，0%的加密税，0%的财富税。所以这对企业家来说非常有吸引力，他们会说，好吧，我正在努力赚钱，建立一些东西。这似乎是个不错的去处

Pieter (19:49): 彼得（19：49）：
Yeah. And I think it’s to Americans, the climate is very similar to California, but it’s also very similar to like Miami and Austin how they’re attracting people from California right now. It’s very the same concept. Portugal is attracting people, also Americas, but also Dutch people, Germans, UK, Denmark, Sweden, those kind of people where it’s colder temperature, and Portugal is warmer and they have these benefits and they need foreigners, they need this income.
是啊我认为这对美国人来说，气候与加州非常相似，但也与迈阿密和奥斯汀非常相似，他们现在如何吸引来自加州的人。这是非常相同的概念。葡萄牙吸引了很多人，包括美国人，荷兰人，德国人，英国人，丹麦人，瑞典人，这些人的温度更低，葡萄牙更温暖，他们有这些好处，他们需要外国人，他们需要这些收入。

Courtland (20:18): 考特兰（20：18）：
Another part of your website, you talk about how Portugal is still recovering from the 2008 financial crisis and experiencing a massive brain drain. And in 2021, they had the largest population decrease in the last 50 years. There’s sort of been dire need of foreigners, and I’ve seen like the same thing in like certain cities in America. I did this road trip last year, I guess a year and a half ago where I was just driving around. And whenever I wasn’t in a really big city center and I would talk to people, it was like pretty obvious like, oh, there’s a lot of brain drain. The most talented, ambitious people just left, they didn’t stay here. And a lot of times the places were really nice. They were beautiful. The food was good. The weather was good. But in terms of like, if you wanted to be a nomad or you wanted to be surrounded by this kind of energy of other ambitious people, that wasn’t there for you so there’s no reason to go. And it seems like Portugal’s got the best of both. It’s like beautiful, and despite the brain drain, for some reason you got all these people sort of collapsing and coalescing in this one place.
在你网站的另一部分，你谈到葡萄牙如何仍在从2008年金融危机中复苏，并经历了大规模的人才流失。在2021年，他们的人口减少是过去50年来最大的。这里有一种对外国人的迫切需求，我在美国的一些城市看到了同样的情况。我去年做了一次公路旅行，我想是一年半前，我只是开车四处转转。每当我不在一个真正的大城市中心，我会和人们交谈，这是很明显的，哦，有很多人才流失。最有才华，最有抱负的人都离开了，他们没有留在这里。很多时候，这些地方真的很好。他们很漂亮。食物很好。天气很好。但就像，如果你想成为一个游牧民族，或者你想被其他雄心勃勃的人的这种能量所包围，那不适合你，所以没有理由去。看起来葡萄牙是两者中最好的。 它就像美丽的，尽管人才流失，出于某种原因，你让所有这些人有点崩溃和凝聚在这个地方。

Pieter (21:15): 彼得（21：15）：
Yeah. But you hit the nail on the head, it’s loads of places that can do this. The US is super ahead with remote work, they were before, and they’re ahead with this migration also, because you see, for example, in America, in US ski resorts, snow resorts are sold out everywhere off season now, like [inaudible 00:21:35] told me this because I think his friends work at a ski resort and people are moving into ski resorts just to snowboard all day and work remotely. They work a little bit, they have breakfast, and then they go ski. It’s amazing. You see people move to like, I think Tulsa, Oklahoma, they pay $10,000 now for you to move there. So cities are trying to attract people, countries are trying to attract people, remote workers, [inaudible 00:21:59] on Twitter, I don’t know if you know him probably you know him, very famous on Twitter.
是啊但你击中了要害，有很多地方可以做到这一点。美国在远程工作方面非常领先，他们以前是，他们也在这种迁移方面领先，因为你看，例如，在美国，在美国的滑雪胜地，滑雪胜地现在在淡季到处都卖光了，就像[听不见00：21：35]告诉我的那样，因为我认为他的朋友在滑雪胜地工作，人们搬到滑雪胜地只是为了整天滑雪和远程工作。他们工作一点，吃早餐，然后去滑雪。太神奇了你看人们搬到像，我想塔尔萨，俄克拉荷马州，他们支付10,000美元现在你搬到那里。所以城市试图吸引人们，国家试图吸引人们，远程工作者，在Twitter上，我不知道你是否认识他，也许你认识他，在Twitter上很有名。

Courtland (22:01): 考特兰（22：01）：
Yeah. 是啊

Pieter (22:01): 彼得（22：01）：
He talks a lot about like the network state and the nation state. He talks about it in a very rational way. I’m a big fan and I like that, I see it more in an informal way, people just want to live in cool places where they have a nice balance between work and private. Just like going outside, going for a walk in nice clean air on the beach, for example, if that’s your thing, or going skiing or whatever, if that’s your thing and all the places you saw on this road trip, a lot of them can do this because if they have fast internet, they’re usually very affordable because there has been a brain drain. There’s been an exodus of people. So yeah. All these places have opportunities to attract remote workers, I think.
他谈了很多关于网络国家和民族国家的话题。他以一种非常理性的方式谈论它。我是一个大风扇，我喜欢，我看到它更多的是在一个非正式的方式，人们只是想住在凉爽的地方，他们有一个很好的平衡工作和私人。就像到外面去，在海滩的清新空气中散步，例如，如果这是你的事情，或者去滑雪或其他什么，如果这是你的事情，你在这次公路旅行中看到的所有地方，他们中的很多人都可以这样做，因为如果他们有快速的互联网，他们通常是非常负担得起的，因为有人才流失。有大批的人离开了。所以是的。我认为，所有这些地方都有机会吸引远程工作者。

Courtland (22:48): 考特兰（22：48）：
Do you think this will be like, you’re doing the same with Rebase, I guess your sort of business model is like you are charging people to basically help onboard them, to set up their residency, and to help them file their tax return. Kind of just like doing like you have no idea how to be a digital nomad, we’re just going to do it for you, all the paper stuff.
你认为这会像，你做同样的与Rebase，我猜你的商业模式是喜欢你是收费的人，基本上帮助他们登机，建立他们的居留权，并帮助他们提交他们的纳税申报表。有点像你不知道如何成为一个数字游牧民族，我们只是要为你做，所有的纸上的东西。

Pieter (23:08): 彼得（23：08）：
Yeah. Yeah. 是啊是啊

Courtland (23:08): 考特兰（23：08）：
Do you want to like copy pace that to other places too?
你也想把它复制到其他地方吗？

Pieter (23:11): 彼得（23：11）：
Yeah. So I’ve been polling Twitter because Twitter is really good for research now, and I’ve been asking where do you people want to move next? What’s interesting for you? And people say like Dubai or Spain, Mexico. Yeah. It’s mostly Mexico, Dubai, Spain, I think. I mean Thailand, Bali, but I think the problem with the place in Asia for Europeans and America is just too far, especially for Americas. Asia is just too far to settle down for a long time. Maybe when you’re retired or something, but Americans are okay with settling down somewhat in Mexico, I think, and maybe some other parts of Latin America, like Colombia, Medellin, for example. And maybe you also see a lot of Americans in Portugal. You see a lot of Europeans in Portugal and Spain and stuff. So those are kind of places that seem more realistic. And I love Thailand, I love Asia, the problem is it’s still hard to kind of integrate or what do call assimilate here as a foreigner on the long term. It just, it’s very difficult.
是啊所以我一直在Twitter上做民意调查，因为Twitter现在真的很适合研究，我一直在问你们这些人下一步想搬到哪里？你对什么感兴趣？人们说像迪拜或西班牙，墨西哥。是啊主要是墨西哥，迪拜，西班牙.我指的是泰国，巴厘岛，但我认为亚洲的问题对欧洲人和美国人来说太远了，特别是对美国人来说。亚洲太远了，无法长期定居。也许当你退休或什么的时候，但是美国人可以在墨西哥定居下来，我想，也许拉丁美洲的其他地方，比如哥伦比亚，麦德林。也许你也会在葡萄牙看到很多美国人。你在葡萄牙和西班牙看到很多欧洲人。所以这些地方看起来更现实。我爱泰国，我爱亚洲，问题是作为一个外国人，长期来说，在这里仍然很难融入或所谓的同化。只是，这很难。

Courtland (24:10): 考特兰（24：10）：
How’s it on the ground in Portugal right now with like lots of different sort of entrepreneurs and nomads moving there, are you hanging out with them? Are you guys working in coworking spaces? Is it social?
现在葡萄牙有很多不同类型的企业家和游牧民，你和他们在一起吗？你们在联合办公空间工作吗？是社交吗？

Pieter (24:20): 彼得（24：20）：
Yeah. I mean, Lisbon is super social. So social that you walk on the street, you go for coffee and somebody shouts like, “Hey Pieter.” And you’re walking, that’s how I met some people. And then at the same night we went to a house party outside on the roof, so it was COVID safe kind of.
是啊我是说，里斯本是个超级社交达人。你走在街上，你去喝咖啡，有人喊，“嘿，彼得。“你在走路，这就是我遇到一些人的方式。然后在同一天晚上，我们去了一个家庭聚会在外面的屋顶上，所以这是新冠病毒安全的一种。

Courtland (24:36): 考特兰（24：36）：
Yeah. 是啊

Pieter (24:37): 彼得（24：37）：
But yeah, it’s super easy to meet people. It’s kind of like the people we know, kind of tech people, but also artists, you now have the crypto people moving in from web trading stuff. Like there was a big crypto conference, I think recently. So it’s a really eclectic mix of like artists, entrepreneurs, crypto, tech, very interesting mix, like really kind of like 1920 Paris, I think. People sometimes compare these places to like the [inaudible 00:25:06] and the cafes where people would group of artists and stuff.
但是，是的，这是超级容易满足的人。这有点像我们认识的人，有点像技术人员，但也有艺术家，你现在有加密货币的人从网络交易的东西。就像最近有一个大型的加密会议一样。所以这是一个非常折衷的组合，像艺术家，企业家，加密，技术，非常有趣的组合，就像真的有点像1920年的巴黎，我想。人们有时会把这些地方比作[听不见的00：25：06]和咖啡馆，人们会在那里聚集艺术家和东西。

Courtland (25:09): 考特兰（25：09）：
Right. Yeah, I’m looking at you’ve got this sort of moving picture Portugal too, like kind of a mini looping video in the top left of Rebase, and it’s beautiful. It looks kind of like the Bay Area, almost, like this like beautiful bay and this red bridge.
对的是的，我看到你也有这样的动态画面葡萄牙，就像一个迷你循环视频在Rebase的左上角，它很漂亮。它看起来有点像海湾地区，几乎，像这样像美丽的海湾和这座红色的桥。

Pieter (25:21): 彼得（25：21）：
Dude, it looks like San Francisco. It has the same bridge.
伙计，看起来像是在旧金山弗朗西斯科。它有同样的桥。

Courtland (25:23): 考特兰（25：23）：
Right? Yeah. I’m like, is that the Golden Gate Bridge? No. It’s [crosstalk 00:25:28].
对不对？是啊我想，那是金门大桥吗？不，是相声。

Pieter (25:27): 彼得（25：27）：
It’s the same bridge. It has the same trams. It’s insane. It has the same hills. It’s literally San Francisco and Europe. It’s insane.
是同一座桥。有相同的电车。太疯狂了它有相同的山。简直就是弗朗西斯科和欧洲太疯狂了

Courtland (25:36): 考特兰（25：36）：
It’s smart for you to put that image there. It reminds me of one of the reasons why Airbnb, they sort of figured out early on that the pictures are so motivating, you see this like really beautiful place, you’re like, ah shit, I got to go. I’m looking at this-
你把那张照片放在那里很聪明。这让我想起了Airbnb的一个原因，他们很早就发现这些照片是如此的激励人心，你看到这个非常美丽的地方，你会想，啊，该死，我得走了。我在看这个-

Pieter (25:47): 彼得（25：47）：
Yeah, you want to get the vibe.
是啊，你想感受一下气氛。

Courtland (25:49): 考特兰（25：49）：
Yeah. Just because of this like picture. It looks gorgeous.
是啊就因为这张照片。看起来很漂亮

Pieter (25:53): 彼得（25：53）：
I’m adding music next to the video, so that’s going to increase, actually I’ve date on this because I launched Rebase as a Typeform, just a test, like a year ago and I love Typeform, it’s nothing against Typeform, but it was kind of like a black color Typeform with white letters like, do you want to move to Portugal or something? And then you could fill out the text and it didn’t really work. There wasn’t many sign ups. So I think you need this whole designing vibe. Somebody told me it’s quite an intense step to move to a country, you want that to be kind of comfortable and you’re not going to do it type form.
我在视频旁边添加了音乐，所以这会增加，实际上我已经在这上面约会了，因为我推出了Rebase作为一个Typeform，只是一个测试，就像一年前一样，我喜欢Typeform，这并不反对Typeform，但它有点像一个黑色的Typeform，上面有白色字母，比如，你想搬到葡萄牙吗？然后你可以填写文本，它并没有真正工作。报名的人不多。所以我觉得你需要这种设计氛围。有人告诉我，搬到一个国家是一个相当紧张的步骤，你希望这是一种舒适，你不会这样做的类型形式。

Courtland (26:28): 考特兰（26：28）：
Yeah. It’s like if you have a fancy restaurant, you got to have clean floors, a good storefront, otherwise people don’t trust your kitchen. If you are doing some sort of a crypto project and it’s an exclusive Discord or DOW or something. [crosstalk 00:26:43].
是啊这就像如果你有一个豪华的餐厅，你必须有干净的地板，一个好的店面，否则人们不信任你的厨房。如果你正在做某种加密项目，并且它是一个独家的Discord或DOW或其他东西。[2019 - 01 - 19 00：00：00]

Pieter (26:43): 彼得（26：43）：
Letters with gradient. Yeah.
字母渐变。是啊

Courtland (26:46): 考特兰（26：46）：
You need to be sleek and cool, maybe like a dark background, maybe a little cryptic.
你需要圆滑和冷静，也许像一个黑暗的背景，也许有点神秘。

Pieter (26:50): 彼得（26：50）：
Yes. 是的

Courtland (26:50): 考特兰（26：50）：
You’re trying to get somebody to like move somewhere or stay in a place, that needs to be bright and look really happy and clean.
你试图让某人喜欢搬到某个地方或呆在一个地方，这需要明亮，看起来真的很快乐和干净。

Pieter (26:56): 彼得（26：56）：
And I’m not very good at design. So I start very functional. So it took me a while to get to this point. Yeah.
我不太擅长设计。所以我开始非常实用。所以我花了一段时间才走到这一步。是啊

Courtland (27:06): 考特兰（27：06）：
So you said like Rebase went viral on Twitter. Give me the sort of, I guess Indie Hacker breakdown of okay, how did you come up with the idea? How did you launch it? How did you grow it to where it is now?
你说Rebase在推特上疯传了给予我那种，我猜独立黑客分解好吧，你是怎么想到这个主意的？你是怎么发射的你是怎么把它种到现在的？

Pieter (27:19): 彼得（27：19）：
Yeah. So I made this, I was working on this landing page and of course true fashion, it wasn’t done of course, but it was already online and it already kind of worked. So I made a photo of me sitting on my bed, like just like I’m sitting here on bed with my laptop and Rebase being open, and then I wrote the tweet, like POV, building an immigration as a service startup. And then everybody started retweeting it and they asked the URL and I gave the URL and then everybody starts signing up. And then suddenly I had like thousand retweets on some other retweet and it was everywhere. And then, you know at that point you probably had the same with Indie Hackers where your friends start sending that their friends sent something that you made and then it’s viral. And I had that, and the last time I had that was with Nomad List and it was eight years ago or something. So I was like, wow, it’s took eight years to go viral with a startup again.
是啊所以我做了这个，我在这个着陆页上工作，当然，真正的时尚，当然还没有完成，但它已经在网上，它已经有点工作。所以我拍了一张我坐在床上的照片，就像我坐在床上，我的笔记本电脑和Rebase是打开的，然后我写了一条推文，就像谷歌，建立一个移民服务初创公司。然后每个人都开始转发它，他们问网址，我给了网址，然后每个人都开始注册。然后突然间，我在其他转发上有上千条转发，到处都是。然后，你知道在这一点上，你可能有同样的独立黑客，你的朋友开始发送，他们的朋友发送的东西，你做的，然后它的病毒。我有过，上一次我有过，是在八年前的《流浪者名单》上。所以我想，哇，花了八年时间才再次与一家初创公司一起病毒式传播。

Courtland (28:16): 考特兰（28：16）：
That’s crazy. I didn’t realize it was like that big. You talk about like having like these 70 plus startups that you started and like four of them have succeeded. Rebase is really like a standout among those 70. It’s the biggest since Nomad List.
太疯狂了我不知道它有这么大。你说你创办了70多家初创公司，其中4家已经成功。Rebase真的是这70个中的佼佼者。这是自《流浪者名单》以来最大的一次

Pieter (28:28): 彼得（28：28）：
Yeah. Yeah. This is one of those four. Yeah. So it took ages to make something again, that’s successful and making money. So I’ve been building so much stuff between that that didn’t work. So it feels like, you know you want to have a you still got it, that feeling like, come on, I’m going to [inaudible 00:28:46]. Because everybody’s saying, oh, you made a project once, it was successful, it’s been eight years ago. Like go away. Feels nice.
是啊是啊这是其中之一。是啊所以花了很长时间才重新做了一件事，那就是成功和赚钱。所以我一直在构建这么多的东西之间，没有工作。所以感觉就像，你知道你想要有一个你仍然得到了它，那种感觉，来吧，我要去[听不清00：28：46]。因为每个人都在说，哦，你做过一个项目，它很成功，那是八年前的事了。比如走开感觉不错。

Courtland (28:55): 考特兰（28：55）：
Okay. So you tweet it just goes viral. Like that’s it. You just had to tweet it and it was the right product to the right audience and …
好吧所以你发微博就能像病毒一样传播。就像这样。你只需要把它发到推特上，它就是给正确受众的正确产品，然后…

Pieter (29:02): 彼得（29：02）：
Yeah. But I tweet loads of stuff that doesn’t go viral. I tweet all the time and it doesn’t go viral. So I cannot predict what works and what doesn’t. So again, it’s the odds thing, right? It’s like, I didn’t know this was such a thing. It hit like a vein.
是啊但我发了很多不会像病毒一样传播的东西。我一直在发微博，但它并没有像病毒一样传播。所以我无法预测什么可行什么不可行。所以这又是概率问题，对吧？就像，我不知道还有这种事。就像血管一样。

Courtland (29:16): 考特兰（29：16）：
It’s like a consistent thing you’ve always done. Because even when you were first starting, you did that blog post 12 startups in 12 months and your whole philosophy was like, I’m just going to do a lot of stuff, and I’m a hundred percent count on any one thing working, but if I try a lot of stuff, maybe one thing will work. And here you are 10 years later, same thing. No matter what it is, you’re still on Twitter. You’re promoting it to your audience. You’re super hyped about it. If it fails, you just seem to not care. You just move on to the next thing.
就像你一直在做的事情一样。因为即使在你刚开始的时候，你在12个月内做了12家创业公司的博客，你的整个哲学就像，我只是要做很多事情，我百分之百地相信任何一件事都是有效的，但如果我尝试了很多东西，也许有一件事会成功。十年后的你，同样的事情。不管是什么，你都在Twitter上。你在向你的观众推销它。你对此很兴奋。如果失败了，你也不在乎。你就去做下一件事吧。

Pieter (29:45): 彼得（29：45）：
I know. It sounds so weird. Yes. Pray and pray, right?
我知道听起来很奇怪。是的祈祷和祈祷，对吧？

Courtland (29:48): 考特兰（29：48）：
Like I don’t see people on your Twitter, like, hey, what happened to that one thing you started? What happened to make chat [crosstalk 00:29:53]-
就像我没在你的推特上看到人们，比如，嘿，你开始做的那件事发生了什么？什么是“聊天”（crosstalk）

Pieter (29:53): 彼得（29：53）：
People just forget. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
人们只是忘记了。是啊是啊是啊

Courtland (29:54): 考特兰（29：54）：
People just forget about your failures or whatever, it doesn’t matter.
人们只是忘记你的失败或什么，这并不重要。

Pieter (29:58): 彼得（29：58）：
Yeah. Unless you post about it then, yeah. But I don’t think it’s the only, this is the problem. People start thinking what you do or what you say is the only way I don’t think it’s the only way, like you see so many other people do, the Slack founder, Stewart Butterfield or something?
是啊除非你把它写下来，是的。但我不认为这是唯一的，这是问题所在。人们开始认为你所做的或你所说的是唯一的方法，我不认为这是唯一的方法，就像你看到的很多其他人一样，Slack的创始人，斯图尔特巴特菲尔德还是什么？

Courtland (30:12): 考特兰（30：12）：
Stewart Butterfield. 斯图尔特·巴特菲尔德。

Pieter (30:13): 彼得（30：13）：
Yeah. He made Slack, and then before he made Flickr. I don’t think he made that many projects, he made two games or something and both games became a startup. Like Flickr was a video game and became Flickr, and then Slack was a video game as well, became Slack. So I don’t think everybody does the same thing. I think it works for me.
是啊他做了Slack，然后在他做Flickr之前。我不认为他做了那么多项目，他做了两个游戏什么的，两个游戏都成了创业公司。就像Flickr是一个视频游戏，然后变成了Flickr，然后Slack也是一个视频游戏，变成了Slack。所以我不认为每个人都做同样的事情。我觉得这对我有用。

Courtland (30:35): 考特兰（30：35）：
I think one of the reasons that you’re so popular is because you’re like crazy vulnerable and transparent, like you just share everything, but also like what you’re doing right now. You’re just excessively humble. You’re like, oh, I’m not that great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like really inspiring, you know? Like it’s like when I first started reading your stuff, I’m like, okay, if Pieter can do it, like I can do it, because you’re so humble about all this stuff. And I know behind the scenes, you are really thoughtful, whatever. But I think for someone who’s just getting started, the approach that you’ve taken of try a lot of stuff, be okay with the fact that like some of it’s not going to work out, a lot of it’s not going to work out, but keep trying, don’t let that discourage you and you don’t have to be like some sort of mad scientist genius. I think that’s probably the most approachable thing for most people. And I think that’s why it’s really inspirational.
我认为你如此受欢迎的原因之一是因为你就像疯狂的脆弱和透明，就像你只是分享一切，但也喜欢你现在正在做的事情。你太谦虚了。你就像，哦，我没那么好，等等。很鼓舞人心，你知道吗？就像当我第一次开始阅读你的作品时，我想，好吧，如果彼得能做到，我也能做到，因为你对这些东西都很谦虚。我知道在幕后，你真的很体贴。但我认为对于一个刚刚起步的人来说，你所采取的尝试很多东西的方法，可以接受这样一个事实，比如有些事情不会成功，很多事情不会成功，但继续尝试，不要让它阻止你，你不必像某种疯狂的科学家天才。我认为这可能是大多数人最容易接近的事情。我想这就是为什么它真的很鼓舞人心。

Pieter (31:23): 彼得（31：23）：
I have to be like that because when I started, I was looking up to all these people and they looked like gods to me, like they knew everything and they could make these websites and these startups and these building teams and hiring people and raising money and all this stuff seemed like magic to me and I was like, I can never, ever get to that skill level ever. I barely can code. I didn’t know how databases work and stuff. So I think you need to, I think the nicest thing to do is to show that I still don’t really know what I’m doing because it makes it accessible, like you say, and it brings more people into it because the worst thing I see with developers and especially engineers is the gate keeping, right?
我必须像那样，因为当我开始的时候，我仰望所有这些人，他们对我来说就像上帝一样，就像他们知道一切，他们可以制作这些网站，这些创业公司，这些建设团队，雇用人员和筹集资金，所有这些东西对我来说都像魔法一样，我就像，我永远无法达到那种技能水平。我几乎不会编码。我不知道数据库是怎么工作的。所以我认为你需要，我认为最好的事情是表明我仍然不知道我在做什么，因为它使它变得容易接近，就像你说的，它带来了更多的人，因为我看到的最糟糕的事情与开发人员，特别是工程师是守门，对吗？

Pieter (32:06): 彼得（32：06）：
Where it’s like, oh, you need to code things in a certain way, and you need to do this in a certain way, but there is no certain way, of course. You can just do whatever you want, as long as it’s legal and you can ship a startup. The most cool thing in creativity, like new projects are built with these weird creative constraints where, because you don’t know how to do things properly, you do it completely wrong, but it still kind of works and it ends up very different because the process is so different and you see it in art, you see it in music, everything, you see it in startups too, where your design might be really bad, but that might become aesthetic, like brutalist or something, right?
就像，哦，你需要以某种方式编码，你需要以某种方式做到这一点，但当然没有某种方式。你可以做任何你想做的事，只要它是法律的，你可以启动。创造力中最酷的事情，就像新项目是在这些奇怪的创造性约束下建立的，因为你不知道如何正确地做事情，你做得完全错误，但它仍然有效，最终结果非常不同，因为过程是如此不同，你在艺术中看到它，你在音乐中看到它，一切，你在初创公司也看到它，你的设计可能真的很糟糕，但这可能会成为美学，像野兽派或什么的，对不对？

Courtland (32:49): 考特兰（32：49）：
Right, right. Yeah. Like you got your own, very unique design where you’re like, okay, I’m not going to do a bunch of images and stuff, but I really like emojis. And so your design will have lots of emojis in it, and it’s like very distinctly Pieter Levels.
对对是啊就像你有自己的，非常独特的设计，你会想，好吧，我不会做一堆图像和东西，但我真的很喜欢表情符号。所以你的设计会有很多表情符号，就像非常明显的Pieter Levels。

Pieter (33:00): 彼得（33：00）：
Yeah. But it’s because I’m too lazy to figure out icon sets, how they work. So I just use emojis, you know?
是啊但这是因为我太懒了，不知道图标集是怎么工作的。所以我就用表情符号，你知道吗？

Courtland (33:07): 考特兰（33：07）：
Exactly. And now a lot of people copy you, but when I see that, I’m like, oh, they’re biting off Pieter Level’s style, because you’re the first person I saw did this. So you have this other stat on your Rebase site, you say Rebase now helps, this is nuts, Rebase now helps 9% of all people who move to Portugal. So every year, 60,000 people-
没错现在很多人都在模仿你，但当我看到这一点时，我想，哦，他们在模仿彼得·莱维的风格，因为你是我看到的第一个这样做的人。所以你在你的Rebase网站上有另一个统计，你说Rebase现在有帮助，这是坚果，Rebase现在帮助了9%的人搬到葡萄牙。所以每年有6万人-

Pieter (33:24): 彼得（33：24）：
Yeah, this is insane. 是啊，这太疯狂了。

Courtland (33:26): 考特兰（33：26）：
-move to Portugal, that’s like the most ridiculous that I’ve ever seen. You’re a major part of this entire country’s import of new citizens or residents.
- 搬去葡萄牙，这是我见过的最荒谬的。你是整个国家新公民或居民的主要组成部分。

Pieter (33:34): 彼得（33：34）：
Yeah. This is super weird. So I didn’t realize this until I was like, there must be like half a million people migrating to Portugal every year or something. I never really thought about it. And then at Googled, it was only like 50,000 or something. And then I realized, okay, if I do like something like 400 a month or 500 a month, that’s almost like 6,000 a year. That’s like over 10% or something. Yeah. And I was like, wow, this insane. I didn’t know that. And I was like, so nobody’s moving to Portugal, and now everybody’s moving to Portugal because of this website, and I do it from a laptop. I don’t have an office. It’s just, the whole thing is weird to me too.
是啊这太奇怪了所以我没有意识到这一点，直到我喜欢，必须有像五十万人移民到葡萄牙每年或什么的。我从来没有想过这个问题。然后在谷歌上，它只有5万左右。然后我意识到，好吧，如果我一个月赚400或500美元，那一年就差不多有6,000美元了。好像超过10%了。是啊我当时就想，哇，太疯狂了。我不知道啊。我想，所以没有人会搬到葡萄牙，现在每个人都因为这个网站搬到葡萄牙，我用笔记本电脑做的。我没有办公室。只是整件事对我来说也很奇怪。

Courtland (34:13): 考特兰（34：13）：
Yeah. It’s like, that’s nuts. I feel like the government should be like reaching out and talking to you.
是啊简直是疯了。我觉得政府应该伸出手来和你谈谈。

Pieter (34:17): 彼得（34：17）：
Yeah. But governments are so hard to talk to. I mean, imagine B2B enterprise sales, but times 10, it’s impossible to. I tried. I tried talking to governments. They didn’t even reply. So I give up. I’ll just make my websites and they can email me if they want. But yeah. I’ll just use the laws that they create for my business. But yeah, there’s some cool stories I heard. Somebody tweeted, or I saw it, I think there’s people from Venezuela now that are trying to get out of Venezuela because Venezuela is like a disaster now and they’re trying to move to Portugal and they’re using Rebase for it, and there’s like four Venezuelans now in the database that are using it to move to Portugal. So that’s like next level cool, because you’re helping people change their life to move to Europe.
是啊但是政府是很难沟通的。我的意思是，想象一下B2B企业销售，但乘以10，这是不可能的。我试过了我试着和政府沟通。他们甚至没有回复。所以我给予了。我只会做我的网站，他们可以给我发电子邮件，如果他们想要的。但是没错。我就用他们为我的生意制定的法律。不过，我听说过一些很酷的故事。有人在推特上说，或者我看到了，我认为现在有来自委内瑞拉的人试图离开委内瑞拉，因为委内瑞拉现在就像一场灾难，他们试图搬到葡萄牙，他们正在使用Rebase，现在数据库中有四个委内瑞拉人正在使用它搬到葡萄牙。所以这就像下一个层次的酷，因为你正在帮助人们改变他们的生活搬到欧洲。

Courtland (35:01): 考特兰（35：01）：
Yeah. It’s cool. How does the product actually work? So I click the start now button.
是啊没事的产品实际上是如何工作的？所以我点击了开始按钮。

Pieter (35:06): 彼得（35：06）：
So you enter this form with all your legal data and stuff, income sources, I think. So essentially what it is because I’m not a legal firm, it’s like legally sensitive territory, you cannot like, I’m not a lawyer, so I shouldn’t do law stuff, but I can resell, I can refer legal services. So I have lawyers that I refer you to that are good and they know how to deal with the types of people that I attract, like remote workers, and they help you through the process, and I get a commission on the amount of money that you spend. But I’m not a legal firm. I just resell. And I think Stripe Atlas, I talked to the Stripe Atlas head of product, I think, and he said they do something similar because I was always saying, ah, you must hire all these lawyers and stuff, and actually I don’t think they do. They do kind of similar, but I think they do it nonprofit because they’re just doing it to, like Stripe wants to increase the amount of businesses on the internet, it’s like the mission. But I think they operate in a similar way. You just resell to high quality lawyers that are trusted. So it’s a very strange-
所以你把所有的法律的数据和东西，收入来源，我想。所以本质上它是什么，因为我不是一个法律的公司，这就像法律敏感领域，你不能喜欢，我不是一个律师，所以我不应该做法律的东西，但我可以转售，我可以介绍法律的服务。所以我有我推荐给你的律师，他们很好，他们知道如何处理我吸引的那种人，比如远程工作者，他们帮助你完成这个过程，我从你花的钱中得到佣金。但我不是法律的事务所。我只是转售。我想Stripe Atlas，我和Stripe Atlas的产品负责人谈过，我想，他说他们做了类似的事情，因为我总是说，啊，你必须雇佣所有这些律师之类的，实际上我不认为他们这样做。他们做的有点类似，但我认为他们这样做是非营利性的，因为他们只是这样做，就像条纹想增加互联网上的业务量，这就像使命。 但我认为他们以类似的方式运作。你只是转售给高质量的律师是值得信赖的。 所以这是一个非常奇怪的-

Courtland (36:14): 考特兰（36：14）：
So at any point do you like collect payment? Like is there like a Stripe payment form in your website?
所以你在任何时候都喜欢收款吗？像是有像条纹付款形式在您的网站？

Pieter (36:19): 彼得（36：19）：
Yeah. After you fill out the form, there’s a Stripe checkout and you pay and then there’s a dashboard where, I’ve used Stripe a lot, like I use Stripe for KYC, so know your customer. So the moment you’ve paid, you get into the dashboard where you need to do KYC, you have Stripe identity. So Stripe identity is a service in Stripe where you can upload your passport, Stripe checks it for me, and then I don’t need to see the passport, so it stays safe at Stripe, but it tells me, okay, this passport is verified. This person is real and is KYC, know your customer. And that also makes it legal for the lawyers and stuff as KYC.
是啊在你填写表格后，有一个Stripe结账，你付款，然后有一个仪表板，我经常使用Stripe，就像我使用Stripe进行KYC一样，所以了解你的客户。所以当你付款的时候，你进入仪表板，在那里你需要做KYC，你有Stripe身份。所以Stripe identity是Stripe的一项服务，你可以上传你的护照，Stripe为我检查，然后我不需要看护照，所以它在Stripe是安全的，但它告诉我，好的，这本护照是经过验证的。这个人是真实的，是KYC，了解你的客户。这也使得它对律师和KYC之类的人来说是法律的。

Courtland (36:57): 考特兰（36：57）：
And so then you get the money and then the people who sign up, basically, I guess you contact the lawyers on their behalf and then you pay the lawyers, but you keep your commission.
然后你得到了钱，然后注册的人，基本上，我猜你代表他们联系律师，然后你支付律师费，但你保留你的佣金。

Pieter (37:05): 彼得（37：05）：
Yeah. So it’s like, I keep the commission and the lawyers take the money that comes after. So it’s quite a simple model. I can change the business model maybe later where I take more of the commission from the lawyers, but I wanted to keep you super simple and easy just to see if it would’ve worked, you know? And it works now. Yeah.
是啊所以就像，我拿佣金，律师拿佣金后的钱。所以这是一个相当简单的模型。我可以改变商业模式，也许以后我会从律师那里得到更多的佣金，但我想让你超级简单和容易只是为了看看它是否会起作用，你知道吗？它现在起作用了。是啊

Courtland (37:24): 考特兰（37：24）：
Right. Yeah. And I bet you’re making like a decent amount of money from this because it’s like, okay, if you’re getting 500 people a month signing up, and this is not like a $5 a month to-do list app that you’re selling to people. It’s a giant move people are making with their life. They’re used to paying a lot of money for this kind of stuff. And so it’s like hundreds of dollars that you’re making per person who joins.
对的是啊我敢打赌，你从中赚了一大笔钱，因为它就像，好吧，如果你每个月有500人注册，这不像一个每月5美元的待办事项列表应用程序，你卖给人们。这是一个巨大的举动，人们正在与他们的生活。他们习惯于为这种东西付很多钱。所以每个加入的人能赚几百美元。

Pieter (37:46): 彼得（37：46）：
I think right now it’s something like 30, 40, 50K. The problem actually is that there was too many, like this lawyer was used to getting like, I don’t know, like 50 customers a month. And suddenly I brought him like 400. So they were just this huge bottleneck, so I needed to email these people like, okay, it’s going to take a little bit longer because it’s been going viral and too many people signed up. I closed to sign up for a few times as well. And now they’ve been hiring more people. They’ve been hiring five more people. They need to train them now for the back office and stuff. So they’re also growing now.
我想现在大概是3万，4万，5万。实际上问题是，有太多，就像这个律师习惯于得到一样，我不知道，像50个客户一个月。突然间我给了他400块。所以他们只是这个巨大的瓶颈，所以我需要给这些人发邮件，好吧，这将需要一点时间，因为它已经成为病毒，太多的人注册。我也报名了几次。现在他们雇了更多的人他们又雇了五个人。他们现在需要训练他们做后勤工作。所以它们现在也在增长。

Courtland (38:18): 考特兰（38：18）：
Yeah. 是啊

Pieter (38:19): 彼得（38：19）：
So it’s kind of cool. Yeah.
所以挺酷的。是啊

Courtland (38:20): 考特兰（38：20）：
Yeah. Also since, I guess the last time we talked, you hadn’t even started Remote OK. So it’s now like the biggest remote job board in the world. So not only is like Rebase taking off, but in the last four years, you have this other project that’s now making, I think millions of dollars and is huge. So like you just like keep having hit after hit, and in between those hits like a bunch of failures that nobody remembers, but it doesn’t matter.
是啊而且，我想上次我们谈话的时候，你甚至还没有启动远程OK。所以它现在就像是世界上最大的远程工作板。所以不仅是像Rebase起飞，但在过去的四年里，你有这个其他项目，现在正在做，我认为数百万美元，是巨大的。所以你就像是一次又一次的打击，在这些打击之间，就像是一堆没有人记得的失败，但这并不重要。

Pieter (38:43): 彼得（38：43）：
Yeah. 是啊

Courtland (38:44): 考特兰（38：44）：
Let’s talk about Remote OK, because it’s all in the same vein, right? Nomad List, you’re digital nomads. Remote OK, get a remote job. Rebase, relocate to Portugal. You’re sticking into your wheel house, but they’re just different aspects of it, and they become these huge projects. So what’s the story behind Remote OK?
让我们来谈谈Remote OK，因为这都是同一个主题，对吗？流浪者名单，你们是数字流浪者。远程好吧，找一个远程工作。重新部署，迁往葡萄牙。你坚持你的驾驶室，但他们只是它的不同方面，他们成为这些巨大的项目。Remote OK背后的故事是什么？

Pieter (39:00): 彼得（39：00）：
Yeah. So I started it as, like I said before, like Nomad Jobs. I built Nomad List first and after a few months people were like, okay, is there remote jobs we can do as Nomads? And back then, remote jobs weren’t even big yet. It wasn’t like a big for thing. And there was still a lot of stigma against remote work. This was like 2014, 2015. I remember Buffer was pushing remote work really hard. A few other companies, I think Automatic from WordPress were pushing it, so they, those were the ones hiring. Zapier too, but it wasn’t a big thing at all. And so I built this job board, Nomad Jobs, and then I spun it off as Remote OK, because I realized quickly, like I said before, that most remote jobs are not for nomads. Most people are not Nomads. 95% of the remote job market is not nomads, it’s just normal people that want to work from home, for example.
是啊所以我就像我之前说的那样，像Nomad Jobs一样开始了。我首先建立了Nomad List，几个月后，人们就像，好吧，我们可以作为Nomads做远程工作吗？在那个时候，远程工作还不算大。不是什么大事。远程工作仍然有很多耻辱。就像2014年，2015年。我记得Buffer非常努力地推动远程工作。其他一些公司，我认为WordPress的自动化正在推动它，所以他们，那些是招聘的人。扎皮尔也是，但这根本不是什么大事。所以我建立了这个工作板，Nomad Jobs，然后我把它分拆为Remote OK，因为我很快意识到，就像我之前说的，大多数远程工作都不适合Nomad。大多数人不是游牧民族。例如，95%的远程就业市场不是游牧民族，而是普通人想要在家工作。

Pieter (39:51): 彼得（39：51）：
So I spun it off as Remote OK, and the first year it didn’t even make money, I think. I was aggregating a lot of jobs from non remote job boards, because there was not really a lot of remote job boards except mine, but there was classic job boards which had remote jobs and they would be located in Remote, Oregon. So Remote is a city in Oregon or a village, so I would just take those jobs and then put them in on my sites. That was a real big problem back then. And this kind of started growing, I started charging like $1 for a job post. So companies started directly posting on my side as well. After a few years, it made okay money. But then when COVID happened, like everything changed. It was like, if you look at the revenue charts, it’s like on remoteok.com/open, it just goes up radically.
所以我把它分拆成Remote OK，第一年它甚至没有赚钱，我想。我收集了很多来自非远程工作板的工作，因为除了我的工作板之外，没有太多的远程工作板，但是有一些经典的工作板有远程工作，它们位于俄勒冈州的远程。Remote是指俄勒冈州的一个城市或一个村庄，所以我会把这些工作放在我的网站上。这在当时是个真实的大问题。这种情况开始增长，我开始对一个工作岗位收取1美元的费用。所以公司也开始直接在我这边发帖。几年后，它赚了不少钱。但当新冠疫情发生时一切都变了如果你看看收入图表，就像在remoteok.com/open上一样，它只是急剧上升。

Courtland (40:41): 考特兰（40：41）：
Basically 2020. It just took off, the trajectory changed. And then also like 2021, around March or April just took off again, like a whole different trajectory.
基本上2020年。它起飞了，轨迹改变了。然后也像2021年，大约在3月或4月再次起飞，就像一个完全不同的轨迹。

Pieter (40:53): 彼得（40：53）：
And I didn’t do much stuff, that’s the weird thing. So I think Sahil from Gumroad said, tweeted this once, that it’s all about the market, like you think you are doing it, but the market is doing it. And as long as you’re in the market, you will benefit from the market. And I think this is super true. Like suddenly remote work is mainstream now. I mean, we were pushing for it for years. We were tweeting about it relentlessly. The remote work is the future, and nobody believed us, and then suddenly just a worldwide pandemic and everything changes. It’s insane. It’s like, how do you predict this? You cannot predict this. And it’s also grim because it’s a really bad thing, a pandemic. It’s like a lot of people died, millions of people died.
奇怪的是，我什么都没做。所以我想Gumroad的Sahil曾经说过，这一切都与市场有关，就像你认为你在做什么，但市场正在做什么。只要你在市场上，你就会从市场中受益。我认为这是超级真实的。突然间，远程工作成了主流。我是说，我们争取了很多年。我们在推特上不停地讨论。远程工作是未来，没有人相信我们，然后突然间一场全球性的流行病，一切都改变了。太疯狂了就像，你怎么能预测到这个？你无法预测这个。这也很严峻，因为这是一件非常糟糕的事情，一场流行病。好像死了很多人，几百万人。

Courtland (41:30): 考特兰（41：30）：
Right. 对的

Pieter (41:31): 彼得（41：31）：
And it’s good for your business. It’s a very strange feeling.
对你的生意也有好处。这是一种非常奇怪的感觉。

Courtland (41:34): 考特兰（41：34）：
Yeah. It’s strange. I’ve seen this so much on Indie Hackers where most people I interview have tech businesses and if any category business did well during the pandemic, it was online tech businesses and it is like this weird juxtaposition between like, well, it’s hard not to be happy when your business is doing well, but it’s also like, damn, you’re happy that essentially this like worldwide tragedy occurred.
是啊这很奇怪。我在Indie Hackers上看到了很多这样的情况，我采访的大多数人都有科技业务，如果说有任何类别的业务在疫情期间表现良好，那就是在线科技业务，这就像是一种奇怪的并列关系，就像，嗯，当你的业务表现良好时，很难不高兴，但它也像，该死的，你很高兴基本上发生了这种世界性的悲剧。

Pieter (41:56): 彼得（41：56）：
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 是啊，是啊，是啊。

Courtland (41:57): 考特兰（41：57）：
No one would like, if we could all go back, no one would want the pandemic to happen.
没有人会希望，如果我们都能回到过去，没有人会希望大流行病发生。

Pieter (42:00): 彼得（42：00）：
Yeah. It’s not good. Just like wars have changed society, right? Society changes, I think very slowly and then very radically, revolutions happen like spikes. It’s cool that things change, but …
是啊情况不妙就像战争改变了社会一样，对吧？社会变化，我认为非常缓慢，然后非常激进，革命就像尖峰一样发生。世事无常这很酷，但是…

Courtland (42:16): 考特兰（42：16）：
Right. Well, it’s cool that you’re so consistent with your projects because when things change, there’s some chance that some of your projects will be moving with the zeitgeist, and some might not, but really all you need is one or two, and Remote OK, obviously remote work is humongous now. It’s like huge. I’m looking at the job board right now and like you have seemingly hundreds or thousands of posts on your job board. It’s got to be, I mean, it’s the number one remote job board. So you just beat out all the other remote job boards.
对的嗯，你和你的项目如此一致，这很酷，因为当事情发生变化时，你的一些项目有可能会随着时代精神而变化，有些可能不会，但实际上你需要的只是一两个，还有远程好吧，显然现在远程工作是巨大的。好像很大。我现在正在看工作板，就像你在你的工作板上似乎有数百或数千个职位。一定是，我的意思是，这是第一个远程工作板。所以你刚刚击败了所有其他远程工作板。

Pieter (42:42): 彼得（42：42）：
Yeah, it just became the number one remote job board this month. I mean, but again, I also don’t know how I did that. It’s just kind of happens.
是的，它刚成为本月排名第一的远程工作板。我是说，但我也不知道我是怎么做到的。就这么发生了。

Courtland (42:51): 考特兰（42：51）：
[crosstalk 00:42:51] how did you do that?
你是怎么做到的？

Pieter (42:53): 彼得（42：53）：
I have no clue. I think what I did recently helped, there was this whole trend of like, I woke up, I drank coffee and I was browsing Reddit, and it was this meme that went viral about, like a South Park meme. Like if you want me to apply for this job, then tell me what salary it is or something. I forgot the joke. I’m so bad at jokes, but it was like 50,000 upvotes. People want job posts with salaries. So I was like, okay, this is obviously, again, like a society thing. Everybody thinks the same about something. So this is a cultural moment. So I started tweeting about this meme and I was like, okay, maybe I should just require companies to show salaries on the site, not just optional, because I had it on the site, it was optional.
我不知道。我觉得我最近做的事情很有帮助，有一个整体的趋势，比如，我醒来，我喝咖啡，我浏览Reddit，是这个模因在病毒式传播，就像一个南方公园模因。如果你想让我申请这份工作，那就告诉我薪水是多少。我忘了那个笑话。我不太会开玩笑，但好像有5万人赞成。人们想要有薪水的工作岗位。所以我想，好吧，这显然是，再一次，像一个社会的事情。每个人对某件事的想法都一样。这是一个文化的时刻。所以我开始在推特上谈论这个迷因，我想，好吧，也许我应该要求公司在网站上显示工资，而不仅仅是可选的，因为我在网站上有它，它是可选的。

Pieter (43:37): 彼得（43：37）：
So I’m like, okay, let’s just go to my code editor and make this input type textbooks required, and I check it with JavaScript if it’s required, if it’s filled in or not. And immediately I started getting the emails from the companies being angry.
所以我想，好吧，让我们去我的代码编辑器，让这个输入类型的教科书是必需的，我用JavaScript检查它是否是必需的，如果它被填充了。我马上就收到了愤怒的公司发来的电子邮件。

Courtland (43:50): 考特兰（43：50）：
Of course. 当然了

Pieter (43:51): 彼得（43：51）：
We don’t want to share our salary and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, but come on. And I was just fighting with them over email. And meanwhile, I was tweeting about it as well, that it was really hard to do this because like big companies that pay like, $20,000 for a job post bundle like 10 jobs at the same time or more, and they were trying to get out of not showing salaries. And then in, I think it was February this year, Colorado I think, the state of Colorado made it a law to require job posting to show salaries. So I was like, okay, now it’s not just my thing. It’s actually a law. So I can say like, okay, if you hire remotely, worldwide, Colorado is included. So you need to do this legally. And that helps a lot, like having it as a law. And then also I think in other countries and stuff, all the job seekers were more happy. And I think then also you started seeing more traffic because people want to see salaries when they apply for a job.
我们不想分享我们的薪水，等等。我就说，是啊，但是得了吧。我只是在邮件上和他们吵架。与此同时，我也在推特上说，这真的很难做到，因为像大公司一样，一个工作岗位同时提供10个或更多的工作岗位，需要支付2万美元，他们试图摆脱不显示工资的情况。然后在，我想是今年2月，科罗拉多，我想，科罗拉多州制定了一项法律，要求招聘广告显示工资。所以我想，好吧，现在这不只是我的事了。这实际上是一条法律。所以我可以说，好吧，如果你在全球范围内远程招聘，科罗拉多也包括在内。所以你必须合法地这么做。这很有帮助，就像把它作为一项法律一样。然后我想在其他国家和其他地方，所有的求职者都更快乐。我想你也开始看到更多的流量，因为人们想在申请工作时看到工资。

Courtland (44:46): 考特兰（44：46）：
It’s like in a way they like these things that the internet is like that you think would come with the internet, like transparency. Okay. You have so many people on the internet. There’s so much more competition. Ultimately things should get more transparent or the distribution of people geographically, okay anybody can work from anywhere because of the internet, so you should see people spread out. And yet it’s taken like 30 years to get to this point where we’re starting to see some of these things happen.
这就像在某种程度上，他们喜欢这些东西，互联网就像你认为互联网会带来的东西，比如透明度。好吧你在网上有这么多人。有这么多的竞争。最终，事情应该变得更加透明，或者人们在地理上的分布，好吧，因为互联网，任何人都可以在任何地方工作，所以你应该看到人们分散开来。然而，我们花了30年的时间才开始看到这些事情的发生。

Pieter (45:11): 彼得（45：11）：
I think the strangest part with remote work was that in, I think 2014, there was entire San Francisco tech, like VCs and startup funds were fighting against remote work, and it was weird for me because I was like, this is the center of tech. These people make the big internet companies, which is the internet, it’s like a virtual concept and they cannot work remotely, they cannot accept that you can work from around the world that we have internet to just connect with each other, like we do now. And it’s so weird. I was, yeah.
我认为远程工作最奇怪的部分是，我认为在2014年，整个旧金山弗朗西斯科的科技，像风投和创业基金都在反对远程工作，这对我来说很奇怪，因为我想，这是科技的中心。这些人制造了大型互联网公司，也就是互联网，它就像一个虚拟的概念，他们不能远程工作，他们不能接受你可以在世界各地工作，我们有互联网只是互相联系，就像我们现在做的那样。太奇怪了。是的

Courtland (45:40): 考特兰（45：40）：
And so bizarre. It’s it’s weird. Like how like uneven, like the distribution of technology is too. Cause I remember like 2004 playing world of aircraft as like a 17 year old. And like we were basically living in the future. We were always on, you know, basically the discord of the time and we would be on team speak, which would be like a giant, like, you know, audio chat, like clubhouse or something. And it’d be like 40 people. And they were distributed remote all over the world and they had different little jobs as part of like our Guild and we’d be on every night like talking and that was like 2004 and yeah, like that was like a video game, you know? And that wasn’t just me, that was like millings of people doing that, you know? And now it’s like 15, 16 years later, people were sort of just catching onto this stuff.
太奇怪了。很奇怪。喜欢怎么样就怎么样不均衡，喜欢技术的分布也是如此。因为我记得2004年玩飞机世界的时候我才17岁。就像我们生活在未来。我们总是在，你知道，基本上是不和谐的时间，我们会在团队发言，这将是一个巨大的，就像，你知道，音频聊天，像俱乐部或什么。大概有40个人他们分布在世界各地的偏远地区，他们有不同的小工作，就像我们的公会，我们每天晚上都在聊天，那就像2004年一样，是的，就像一个视频游戏，你知道吗？不仅仅是我，成千上万的人都这么做，你知道吗？现在大概是15，16年后，人们才开始了解这些东西。

Pieter (46:23): 彼得（46：23）：
I was in Quake II clans. We were already doing this. We were already in metaverse as well. So yeah.
我在《雷神之锤2》里。我们已经这样做了。我们当时也在虚拟世界里。所以是的。

Courtland (46:28): 考特兰（46：28）：
Yeah. 是啊

Pieter (46:29): 彼得（46：29）：
It took a long, long ass time.
这花了很长时间，屁股。

Courtland (46:31): 考特兰（46：31）：
And I’m looking at your graph for Remote OK, like even Remote OK took a long time. The very beginning of your revenue graph is like 2015. And so I look looking at it today and it’s like, okay, you’re at like 1.4 million a year run rate. Like that’s huge.
我在看你的远程OK图，就连远程OK也花了很长时间。你的收入图表的开始就像2015年。所以我今天看着它，它就像，好吧，你就像140万美元一年的运行速度。好像很了不起似的。

Pieter (46:46): 彼得（46：46）：
Yeah. 是啊

Courtland (46:47): 考特兰（46：47）：
It’s job boards like printing cash, but for many years your revenue run rate was like $10,000, $20,000, 30.
它的工作板就像印刷现金，但多年来，你的收入运行率就像10,000美元，20,000美元，30美元。

Pieter (46:58): 彼得（46：58）：
Yeah. I mean, it was good, but I was convinced it was going to kind of stay there. And for a while it stayed there, it was kind of like this. I remember feeling kind of mad about it in like 2016, 2017, because it was just, nothing was growing. It was kind like going like this and Nomad List was the same, it didn’t didn’t grow. And I was like, okay, this is it. I mean, just be happy, it’s still a lot of money. It was like 500K a year or something. So half a million year, it was still a lot of money, but I was like, okay, maybe it’s not going to grow much more. And then COVID.
是啊我的意思是，它是好的，但我相信它会留在那里。有一段时间，它呆在那里，就像这样。我记得在2016年，2017年，我对此感到有点生气，因为它只是，没有任何增长。就像这样，流浪者名单也是一样，它没有增长。我就想，好吧，就是这样。我是说，开心点，这还是很多钱。一年大概50万。所以50万年，这仍然是一大笔钱，但我想，好吧，也许它不会再增长了。然后是新冠肺炎。

Courtland (47:30): 考特兰（47：30）：
Yeah. At the end of 2016, so I’ll just read some of the numbers. At the end of 2016, Remote OK was making $30,000 a year. At the end of 2017, so this is like three years in, you’re making $82,000 a year, so that was like a pretty okay salary. And then in 2018, it grew a lot, it’s making like $200,000 a year. And then at the end of 2019, right before the pandemic, it’s making almost $300,000 a year. So it grew to a pretty sizable amount, but compared to the last couple years, that almost looks like just like flat on the graph. Like you can’t even see it.
是啊在2016年底，所以我只会读一些数字。2016年底，Remote OK的年收入为3万美元。在2017年底，这就像三年一样，你每年赚82，000美元，所以这是一个相当不错的薪水。然后在2018年，它增长了很多，每年赚20万美元。然后在2019年底，就在大流行之前，它每年赚近30万美元。所以它增长到一个相当大的数量，但与过去几年相比，这几乎看起来就像在图表上持平。就像你根本看不见一样。

Pieter (48:04): 彼得（48：04）：
Exactly. 没错

Courtland (48:05): 考特兰（48：05）：
It looks like no growth. And the first two years definitely look flat on the graph.
看起来没有增长。前两年在图表上看起来很平淡。

Pieter (48:10): 彼得（48：10）：
You’re putting so much effort into the site and it’s kind of like …
你在网站上投入了那么多精力就像…

Courtland (48:15): 考特兰（48：15）：
Yeah. You’re not seeing a lot of reaction in terms of the revenue based and the effort you’re putting in. And that’s when people quit, the first couple years where it’s flat.
是啊你没有看到很多的反应，在收入方面的基础和努力，你投入。这就是人们退出的时候，最初几年它是平的。

Pieter (48:21): 彼得（48：21）：
Yes. They always quit the first five years. And the reason I didn’t quit was because I was in music before, I was in drum base, electronic music, and I quit after like five years. And then I remember the people that started at the same time as me, they continued and they went for like a whole decade, like for 10 years, and they became world famous. They became, in that scene, in the music scene, they became world famous DJs. And I gave up, so I gave up too fast. I think, with music, and I didn’t want to do that again. So I’m like, I’m just going to do this for 10 years at least and see where it ends up and I think it’s a 10 year rule or something, like 10,000 hour rule. Like you need to do something for a very long time to get good at it, and I think 10 years, it’s a really long time, but it’s a good time to see if you can get something somewhere because you’ve done it over and over and over and over and over. And you really understand the industry after that time, I think.
是的他们总是在头五年辞职。我没有退出的原因是因为我以前是做音乐的，我做过鼓乐，电子音乐，我做了五年就退出了。然后我记得那些和我同时开始的人，他们继续前进，他们走了整整十年，十年，他们成为世界闻名的人。他们成为了，在那个场景中，在音乐场景中，他们成为了世界著名的DJ。我放弃了，所以我放弃得太快了。我想，用音乐，我不想再这样做了。所以我想，我至少要这样做10年，看看它会在哪里结束，我想这是一个10年的规则，比如10,000小时的规则。就像你需要做一件事很长一段时间才能做好它，我认为10年，这是一个很长的时间，但这是一个很好的时间来看看你是否能在某个地方得到一些东西，因为你已经做了一遍又一遍，一遍又一遍。我想，在那之后，你真的了解了这个行业。

Courtland (49:20): 考特兰（49：20）：
What do you think you understand about launching these products and building startups that you sort of accrued from probably spending at least 10,000 hours on this stuff over the past decade?
你认为你对推出这些产品和建立创业公司的理解是什么？你在过去十年里在这些东西上花费了至少10,000个小时。

Pieter (49:30): 彼得（49：30）：
I think the biggest mistake that people will make is that the only focus should be your user and the customer and how you make them happy. It doesn’t have to be like very special, it has to do a basic function really, really well. Like Nomad List tells you if you have specific preferences where to live, like I want to live in a warm place in January in Europe. Okay. It’ll tell you that exactly. It’s a very simple problem. And it solves that problem very easily, very fast. And Remote OK, you say I need a remote PHP job, okay, you can find that really easily. And this amount of salary and this company information, blah blah blah. And it’s very simple, but it does everything that the user wants in what I think is the best way a user wants it. And you see all these other websites, they look too good, they have too many gradients, and they’re too aesthetically pleasing, there’s too much focus on all this stuff, and I think that’s like a red flag for me almost. It should be function over form and like Jony Ive is a good example with Apple, right? The Apple designer, where he made these MacBooks the last five years, like 2015, I think 2017 to 2020, he made the worst MacBooks that existed because he-
我认为人们会犯的最大错误是，唯一的焦点应该是你的用户和客户，以及你如何让他们快乐。它不需要非常特别，它必须非常非常好地完成一个基本功能。就像游牧名单告诉你，如果你有具体的偏好，住在哪里，像我想住在一月在欧洲温暖的地方。好吧它会告诉你的。这是个很简单的问题它可以非常简单快速地解决这个问题。远程好的，你说我需要一个远程PHP作业，好的，你可以很容易地找到它。还有这个工资和这个公司的信息，等等等等。它非常简单，但它做了用户想要的一切，我认为这是用户想要的最好的方式。你看到所有这些其他的网站，他们看起来太好了，他们有太多的渐变，他们太美观，有太多的关注所有这些东西，我认为这对我来说就像一个危险信号。 它应该是功能而不是形式，就像Jony Ive是苹果的一个很好的例子，对吗？ 苹果的设计师，在过去的五年里，比如2015年，我想是2017年到2020年，他制造了最糟糕的MacBook，因为他-

Courtland (50:44): 考特兰（50：44）：
Hate them. I hate them.
恨他们。我讨厌他们。

Pieter (50:46): 彼得（50：46）：
Yeah, he’s a good guy, but he chose form over function, and now you see the new MacBooks are function of a form again. Like they have SD reader.
是的，他是个好人，但他选择了形式而不是功能，现在你看到新的MacBook又是形式的功能。就像他们有SD读卡器。

Courtland (50:55): 考特兰（50：55）：
I know. They’re awesome. 我知道他们很棒。

Pieter (51:00): 彼得（51：00）：
It’s amazing. 太神奇了

Courtland (51:00): 考特兰（51：00）：
Did you get a new one?
你买了新的吗？

Pieter (51:00): 彼得（51：00）：
I just got it here. Yes. I just have it here.
我刚拿到的。是的我只是把它放在这里。

Courtland (51:02): 考特兰（51：02）：
Me too. It’s awesome. I hate it my old MacBook.
我也是太棒了。我讨厌我的旧MacBook。

Pieter (51:03): 彼得（51：03）：
Yeah, me too. And we paid so much money for this shit book, but now it’s good. I think that’s the point, like function over form should be the key in business. You need to solve this problem real easily, and that almost, again, makes it more accessible for more people too, because you don’t need to be again a designer or a big developer, you need to solve something in a very basic way, but you need to solve it. And a lot of apps don’t even solve something. They just good. And a lot of them don’t even have a problem they’re solving in the first place. So you know what I mean?
是啊我也是我们花了那么多钱买这本书，但现在它很好。我认为这就是重点，就像功能而不是形式应该是商业的关键。你需要真实的地解决这个问题，这也让更多的人更容易理解它，因为你不需要再次成为一个设计师或一个大开发者，你需要用一种非常基本的方式解决一些问题，但是你需要解决它。很多应用程序甚至不能解决一些问题。他们只是好。他们中的很多人甚至没有一个问题，他们正在解决摆在首位。你懂我的意思吗？

Courtland (51:32): 考特兰（51：32）：
Yeah. I mean, with startups, even with like the bootsstrappers now, there’s kind of a scene, on Twitter, or if you’re in Silicon valley, and it’s like, I think it’s really easy to get caught up in a scene and you’re trying to impress the gatekeepers. You trying to impress your peers instead of like talking to your customers.
是啊我的意思是，对于初创公司，即使像现在这样的引导者，也会有一种场景，在Twitter上，或者如果你在硅谷，就像，我认为很容易陷入一种场景，你想给看门人留下深刻印象。你试图给你的同行留下深刻印象，而不是喜欢和你的客户交谈。

Pieter (51:49): 彼得（51：49）：
Exactly. 没错

Courtland (51:51): 考特兰（51：51）：
All right. We’ve talked about Nomad List, Remote OK, and Pieter’s other projects. There’s still a ton that I want to talk to Peter about. And so listeners, this is a two part episode. You can find the second part of this conversation and next week’s episode.
好吧我们已经讨论过Nomad List、Remote OK和Pieter的其他项目。我还有很多事想和彼得谈谈。所以听众们，这是一个两部分的插曲。你可以找到这个对话的第二部分和下周的插曲。

Part 2 第2部分

Courtland (00:06): Courtland（00：06）：
What’s up everybody. This is Cortland from indiehackers.com and you’re listening to the Indie Hackers Podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process. On this show, I sit down with these Indie Hackers to discuss the ideas, the opportunity and the strategies they’re taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same.
大家好啊我是来自indiehackers.com的科特兰，您正在收听的是独立黑客播客。比以往任何时候都多的人在网上创造很酷的东西，并在这个过程中赚了很多钱。在这个节目中，我和这些独立黑客坐下来讨论他们的想法、机会和策略，这样我们其他人也可以这样做。

Courtland (00:29): Courtland（00：29）：
This is part two of my conversation with Pieter Levels. If you missed the first part, that’s cool. Just go back to last week’s episode where we talked about Pieter’s companies, Remote OK and Rebase.
这是我与Pieter Levels对话的第二部分。如果你错过了第一部分，那很酷。回到上周的一集，我们讨论了Pieter的公司，Remote OK和Rebase。

Courtland (00:45): Courtland（00：45）：
Let’s talk about money. Tyler Tringas gets asked this. He’s a good example of someone who’s moved to Mexico.
我们来谈谈钱吧。泰勒·特林格斯被问到这个问题。他是一个很好的例子，有人谁搬到墨西哥。

Pieter (00:49): 彼得（00：49）：
Yeah. I know him. 是啊我认识他

Courtland (00:50): Courtland（00：50）：
He’s in Mexico city. He’s all about Mexico city. He’s like, “Mexico City’s pretty cool.” I’ve been down to his conference down there, but he wanted to know how you are handling investment in money now that your projects are making 3-4 million dollars or something. I’m just curious more from a broader psychological aspect or perspective too. You ask people on Twitter, “What should we talk about?”
他在墨西哥城。他只关心墨西哥城。他说，“墨西哥城很酷。“我去过他在那里的会议，但他想知道你是如何处理投资的钱，现在你的项目是300万至400万美元或什么的。我只是从更广泛的心理学方面或角度来好奇。你在推特上问人们，“我们应该谈什么？“

Courtland (01:10): Courtland（01：10）：
And a lot of the questions were like, “Are you happy? Does money make you happy?” Or, “What do you know about happiness now that you’ve had these successful projects?” I look at you and you’re like okay, I’m carrying my laptop around in a grocery store bag. I don’t know. What is your relationship to-
很多问题都是这样的，“你快乐吗？钱让你快乐吗？或者，“既然你已经有了这些成功的项目，你对幸福有什么了解？”“我看着你，你就像好吧，我把我的笔记本电脑放在杂货店的袋子里。我不知道你和他是什么关系-

Pieter (01:24): 彼得（01：24）：
It’s not how I imagined my life.
这不是我想象中的生活

Courtland (01:27): Courtland（01：27）：
What is your relationship to money now?
你现在和钱有什么关系？

Pieter (01:30): 彼得（01：30）：
Yes. I think it’s very interesting because I remember in the student, days I was making $300-400 a month and now much more. But so we talked a little bit about this on DM too. I think almost this is also a touch topic. It’s like money and capitalism and stuff, but you need a base amount of money to be comfortable. Do you know FIRE, F-I-R-E?
是的我认为这是非常有趣的，因为我记得在学生，天我是300 -400美元一个月，现在更多。所以我们在DM上也谈了一些。我想这也是一个很有触动的话题。这就像金钱和资本主义之类的东西，但你需要一个基本的钱是舒适的。您是否知道FIRE，F-I-R-E？

Courtland (01:53): Courtland（01：53）：
Yeah. Financially independent, retire early.
是啊经济独立，提前退休。

Pieter (01:55):
Yeah. So they have this concept where if you save, let’s say you save $100,000, you can take out $4,000 a year. Sorry, invest this $100,000 in stock markets, like in ETFs and stuff. And then you can perpetually take out 4% per year. So $4,000 a year. So if you have a million dollars saved after 20 years, you can take out 40,000.
是啊所以他们有这样一个概念，如果你保存，假设你保存10万美元，你每年可以拿出4,000美元。对不起，把这10万美元投资在股市上，比如ETF之类的。然后你可以永远每年拿出4%。一年四千块。所以如果你在20年后存了100万美元，你可以取出4万美元。

Pieter (02:17): 彼得（02：17）：
So 40,000 is about some money you can maybe live off. That means that having a million dollars can give you $40,000 the rest of your life, kind of, perpetual. So then you’re kind of retired. I think that’s a much more interesting way to see millions or seeing money that it’s not… A million dollar doesn’t mean you could spend a million dollar. A million dollar means you can spend $40,000 per year. I think money in a way is a scam because, and this is controversial, but the narrative in culture, we talk about this on DM, the narrative in culture is that especially as a guy, if you make money, you get successful, suddenly you get women, all the stuff. You get power. It’s from, I think Scarface and stuff. You get the money, you get the power.
所以4万是你可以靠的钱。这意味着拥有100万美元可以给予你余生的4万美元，有点像是永久的。所以你算是退休了。我认为这是一个更有趣的方式看到数百万或看到钱，它不是.一百万美元并不意味着你可以花一百万美元。一百万美元意味着你每年可以花四万美元。我认为金钱在某种程度上是一个骗局，因为，这是有争议的，但是文化中的叙述，我们在DM上讨论这个，文化中的叙述是，特别是作为一个男人，如果你赚钱，你成功了，突然你得到了女人，所有的东西。你得到了权力。好像是疤面煞星之类的你得到了钱，你得到了权力。

Courtland (03:04): 考特兰（03：04）：
Scarface, rap songs. 疤面煞星说唱歌曲

Pieter (03:06): 彼得（03：06）：
Yeah. It’s bullshit. It doesn’t worthy that. Nobody cares about that. Really, everybody’s just looking for another nice person to be a boyfriend or girlfriend with, to be a partner with. And if you meet the people that do want you for your money, you don’t want them because they’re gold diggers. I don’t even meet those people. People don’t really care. Really, people don’t care about this stuff.
是啊简直是胡扯它不值得。没人在乎那个真的，每个人都只是在寻找另一个好人作为男朋友或女朋友，作为一个合作伙伴。如果你遇到那些想要你的钱的人，你不会想要他们，因为他们是淘金者。我都没见过那些人。人们并不真正关心。真的，人们不关心这些东西。

Pieter (03:27): 彼得（03：27）：
That’s the biggest shock. Not that I did it for that, but it’s all a scam. It’s a society narrative that you need sports cars and a big house. I rented this big architect villa because I wanted to do it. So I rented it this year in Thailand and I lived there with my ex-girlfriend and it was really beautiful, Instagram amazing and it was really boring also. I was so bored and I felt lonely. It was too much space.
这是最大的冲击。我不是为了这个，但这都是骗局。这是一个社会叙事，你需要运动汽车和一个大房子。我租了这个大的建筑师别墅，因为我想这样做。所以我今年在泰国租了它，我和我的前女友住在那里，它真的很漂亮，Instagram惊人，它真的很无聊。我觉得很无聊很孤独。空间太大了。

Pieter (03:57): 彼得（03：57）：
I’m not saying it in a humble brag cool away. I’m just saying that to test that, you need to test that lifestyle and really quickly realize that I’m much more happy with a grocery store bag in a hotel room than this kind of luxury life that you see in TV and movies. I don’t think it’s real. I think it’s artificial. It’s data signaling. It’s signaling that you’re rich to other people, but that’s not an intrinsic way to get happy I think. I don’t need to signal I’m happy. I’m okay. It doesn’t add anything.
我不是在谦虚地吹牛。我只是说，为了验证这一点，你需要测试这种生活方式，并很快意识到，我更喜欢在酒店房间里带着杂货店的袋子，而不是你在电视和电影中看到的这种奢侈生活。我觉得这不是真实的。我觉得是人造的。是数据信号。这是向别人发出你很富有的信号，但我认为这并不是一种内在的快乐方式。我不需要暗示我很开心。我没事它不会增加任何东西。

Courtland (04:31): 考特兰（04：31）：
Why do you think that is? Because it seems from the outside looking in, there are a lot of rich people who really also love the trappings of being rich. They love their huge mansion, they love their designer clothes. They love their boujee ass stuff. It seems that doesn’t provide any happiness to you. Are they just status signaling? Do they really not it or is it just something unique about you that makes that stuff just unnecessary?
你觉得这是为什么？因为从外面看，似乎有很多富人也喜欢富人的服饰。他们爱他们的豪宅，他们爱他们的设计师的衣服。他们喜欢他们的布吉屁股的东西。似乎这并没有给你带来任何快乐。它们只是状态信号吗？他们真的不喜欢吗？或者只是你的一些独特之处让这些东西变得不必要？

Pieter (04:56): 彼得（04：56）：
It’s a good question. We don’t know. But I’ve never had much motivation or incentive to signal. My status signaling would be like, “Look, this cool thing I made. Look this cool website I made. It works now. It was really difficult and challenging and now I made it.”
问得好我们不知道但我从来没有太多的动机或动机去发信号。我的状态信号会是这样的，“看，我做的这个很酷的东西。看看我做的这个很酷的网站。现在可以了。这真的很困难，很有挑战性，现在我做到了。“

Pieter (05:13): 彼得（05：13）：
That’s signaling because it’s that’s this creativity kind of stuff. You could argue, this is like [inaudible 00:05:18] where you could argue showing revenue it’s signaling already. But I don’t really do it for that. I do it more for transparency, but I do think we’re a tribal people. Humans are animals and people are tribal, which means they need to signal on the tribe, their status. And maybe then my state of signaling is in a different way than the classic way of like look at all this ownership I have.
这是一种信号，因为这是一种创造力。你可以说，这就像[听不见00：05：18]你可以说，它已经发出了收入信号。但我不是为了这个。我这样做更多的是为了透明，但我认为我们是一个部落的人。人类是动物，人是部落，这意味着他们需要向部落发出信号，他们的地位。也许我发出信号的方式与经典的方式不同，比如看看我拥有的所有权。

Courtland (05:44): 考特兰（05：44）：
Right. The way you signal depends on the tribe that you’re part of. If you’re part of a tribe, that’s like, “Okay, we’re a bunch of makers and we like to build things to be financially independent.” And then you signal by building cool stuff and generating revenue from your projects. If you live with a bunch of people who are in some fancy suburb of LA and the way you signals by having a really big house and a really nice car, then you don’t care about building projects online. You care about that kind of stuff. I like the tribe that you’re part of personally, because it’s more productive.
对的你发信号的方式取决于你所在的部落。如果你是一个部落的一部分，那就像是，“好吧，我们是一群制造者，我们喜欢制造东西以实现经济独立。“然后你通过构建很酷的东西和从你的项目中创造收入来发出信号。如果你和一群住在洛杉矶郊区的人住在一起，你有一个很大的房子和一辆很好的车，那么你就不在乎在网上建立项目。你关心这种事。我喜欢你个人的部落，因为它更有成效。

Pieter (06:19):
Yeah. I think that hits in the nail on the head, yeah. I do think it’s a trend though. I never know if someone is a trend or it’s just me and our tribe kind of doing it. But I do see trend of being more about intrinsic, pure motivations and happiness and less about capital and ownership and material goods and cars, sports cars, flashy clothes and stuff. Look how we dress usually. We all wear basic T-shirts that are $10. You’re probably the same. I don’t know. Maybe.
是啊我想这正中要害。但我认为这是一种趋势。我从来不知道是否有人是一种趋势，或者只是我和我们的部落在做这件事。但我确实看到了一种趋势，更多的是内在的、纯粹的动机和幸福，而不是资本、所有权、物质商品、汽车、跑车汽车、华丽的衣服和东西。看看我们平时穿什么。我们都穿10美元的基本T恤。你可能也一样。我不知道也许吧

Courtland (06:49): 考特兰（06：49）：
I’m wearing my robe that I got on Amazon for 20 bucks. Super comfy. It’s wearing a blanket. It’s got a hood. It’s nice.
我穿着在亚马逊上花20巴克斯的长袍。超级舒服它穿着毯子。它有个引擎盖。很不错啊。

Pieter (06:54): 彼得（06：54）：
Exactly. It’s amazing. Yeah. I got the hoodie too. We dress like kids pretty much. Having a really big house also takes a lot of maintenance and management and you see these rich people that have crazy lives. It’s so much fucking work and they’re stressed out of their mind, they burnout from just existing. I think the real key for me, the benefit is not having to do anything like that, not having to manage a lot of people and just sit on my bed and do Indie Hacker Podcast and just chill and not after all those obligations.
没错太神奇了是啊连帽衫我也有我们穿得很像孩子。拥有一个真正的大房子也需要大量的维护和管理，你看到这些富人有疯狂的生活。工作太他妈多了，他们压力太大了，他们因为生存而精疲力竭。我认为对我来说，真实的关键是，好处是不必做这样的事情，不必管理很多人，只需坐在我的床上，做独立黑客播客，只是放松，而不是在所有这些义务之后。

Courtland (07:29): 考特兰（07：29）：
I read a book recently. It’s by Anderson Cooper. He was a journalist, also a reporter, but he also comes from this Vanderbilt family. His dad’s last name is Cooper, but his mom’s last name is Vanderbilt. And she was the sixth generation of the Vanderbilts. And they were at some point the richest family in America in the 1800s and the late 1800s. It got to the point, it was the third generation of kids and they just had a ton of money that they had inherited from the previous generations of people who were sort of building this empire, Cornelius Vanderbilt.
我最近读了一本书。是安德森库珀写的。他是一个记者，也是一个记者，但他也来自这个范德比尔特家庭。他爸爸姓库珀，但他妈妈姓范德比尔特。她是范德比尔特家族的第六代。他们在19世纪和19世纪后期曾是美国最富有的家族。这是第三代的孩子，他们继承了前几代人的大量财富，他们建立了这个帝国，科尼利厄斯范德比尔特。

Courtland (07:57): 考特兰（07：57）：
But the kids, at that point, what did care about? They didn’t have any business savvy, they didn’t have any ambition, they didn’t have any acumen in that area. They just cared about being part of high society and state of signaling.
但是孩子们，在这一点上，关心什么呢？他们没有任何商业头脑，他们没有任何野心，他们在这方面没有任何敏锐性。他们只关心成为上流社会的一部分和信号状态。

Courtland (08:08):
And so they just squandered the greatest fortune in America by doing nothing, building giant elaborate houses and throwing these crazy balls and just showing off as much as they could to try to cling onto the status they had of the richest of the rich people. It’s like you said, these houses cost hundreds of thousands of dollars a year just to maintain. By the time it was ’30s or ’40s, they were all broke. The kids were all broke. It all disappeared and there’s nothing left of it. That’s what I think of when I think of old money. And I think of new money, it’s like, “Don’t do that.”

Pieter (08:41):
Man, there’s so many lessons there. It shows again what we said in the start, you adapt to this stuff so fast, you adapt to big houses and cars and crazy rich extravagant parties and stuff. The hedonism part of it as well. You all probably adapt to this, but it takes some effort to imagine that because it seems so nice. It’s like wow, these cool parties. But you probably get used to that too and then it’s the same thing.
天啊，这里面有很多教训。它再次表明了我们在开始时说的，你适应这些东西这么快，你适应大房子和汽车和疯狂的丰富奢侈的聚会和东西。快乐主义也是一部分。你们可能都已经适应了，但这需要一些努力去想象，因为它看起来太好了。哇，这些派对真酷。但你可能也习惯了，然后这是同样的事情。

Pieter (09:10): 彼得（09：10）：
So I think if you take the effort to imagine that and okay, let’s not do that and instead live in a more conscious, also to yourself manner of what do I want to do? My life’s so simple now. All I do is I wake up, I drink coffee and I open my laptop a little bit. I talk to my friends, I code a little bit. I go for a walk. I go to the gym every two days.
所以我认为如果你努力去想象，好吧，让我们不要这样做，而是生活在一个更有意识的，也是你自己的方式，我想做什么？我现在的生活很简单我所做的就是起床，喝咖啡，打开笔记本电脑。我和我的朋友聊天，我写一点代码。我去散步。我每两天去一次健身房。

Pieter (09:33): 彼得（09：33）：
Andre lives here also, so I see Andre a lot. There’s another guy, Javi lives here and we hang out. It’s a very simple life right now. Also because of COVID of course, but I don’t know. I’m happy. There’s this quote I read on Twitter this week, “If you can’t be happy with your coffee, you cannot be happy with a billion dollars.” Same thing. Be happy with simple things and my dad says the same thing. All he says is you wake up and he drinks tea and he eats a cookie and he’s like, “This is life. This is the best thing.”
安德烈也住在这里，所以我经常见到安德烈。还有一个人，哈维住在这里，我们一起玩现在的生活很简单当然，也是因为新冠肺炎，但我不知道。我很快乐你这周我在Twitter上读到一句话，“如果你不能对你的咖啡感到快乐，你就不能对十亿美元感到快乐。“一样的。做简单的事就开心我爸也这么说。他说的是你醒来，他喝茶，吃饼干，他就像，“这就是生活。这是最好的事情。“

Pieter (10:02): 彼得（10：02）：
Basic shit. This data on this studies that show buying a house after six months, you’re at the same level of happiness. Marrying, buying a car, after two months or something. Hedonic adaptation, the hedonic treadmill is a very interesting concept.
基本的狗屎。这个研究的数据显示，买了房子六个月后，你的幸福水平是一样的。结婚，买车，两个月后。享乐适应，享乐跑步机是一个非常有趣的概念。

Courtland (10:19): 考特兰（10：19）：
It is. And it’s especially relevant when you’re, I think, organizing your life in a way where you’re always chasing these big goals. Because if you’re chasing a goal, you’re essentially saying, “Okay, there’s a thing I don’t have right now and I would be happy if I had it.” That’s dangerous because the flip side of that is like, “I’m not happy right now. I’m not happy unless get this thing. I got my coffee. I’m not happy with the coffee, I need a billion dollars.”
是的我认为，当你以一种总是追逐这些大目标的方式组织你的生活时，这一点尤其重要。因为如果你在追求一个目标，你基本上是在说，“好吧，有一件事我现在没有，如果我有它，我会很高兴。“这是危险的，因为另一面就像，“我现在不高兴。不拿到这个我就不开心。我买了咖啡。我对咖啡不满意，我需要十亿美元。“

Pieter (10:40):
Yes, yes. But this is such a difficult concept to grasp. That’s why people work their ass off until they’re 80 or 70 or whatever, to get there. This is a really sensitive thing to say because you always have these rich people to say, “The answer’s not on wealth. Blah, blah.”

Pieter (10:55):
It’s bullshit. Of course, it is. If you have enough money that you don’t need to work, that’s a great benefit. Financial independence should be… Everybody should get that. Universal basic income should be for everybody. It’s so comfortable and nice to not have a boss. It’s amazing. But after that, when I passed 1 million a year in revenue, that was exceptional and now it’s 2 million year in revenue and it’s just a number. It doesn’t mean anything. You pay more tax and that’s it.

Courtland (11:22):
So then how do you navigate that transition? Because before you get there, there’s definitely, I think a difference between having that financial freedom and not having it. I think there is kind of a happiness change. There is kind of a burden lifted off your shoulders when you’re like, “Okay. I like being independent.”
那么，你如何驾驭这种转变呢？因为在你达到这个目标之前，我认为拥有财务自由和没有财务自由是有区别的。我认为这是一种幸福的变化。当你说，“好吧，我喜欢独立。“

Pieter (11:37): 彼得（11：37）：
[inaudible 00:11:37]. 【听不见的声音】

Courtland (11:37): 考特兰（11：37）：
“I got that million dollars. I can live off 40K a year. Wow, that’s a whole bunch of stuff I no longer have to do ever if I don’t want to.” How do you adjust to that? Because well now you need, ideally… Maybe you don’t. Maybe new things that make you happy, like some of the old goals you had, you’ve sort of accomplished.
“我得到了那一百万美元。我一年能靠四万过活。哇，这是一大堆的东西，我再也不必做，如果我不想做。“你怎么能适应这一点？因为现在你需要，理想情况下…也许你不知道也许是一些让你快乐的新事物，比如你曾经的一些旧目标，你已经完成了。

Courtland (11:55): 考特兰（11：55）：
I think that can be pretty jarring for a lot of people. A lot of people get really rich and then they commit suicide or they become depressed because the thing they were chasing, no longer even matters and they don’t feel that difference. They just hedonically adapted.
我想这对很多人来说都很不和谐。很多人变得非常富有，然后他们自杀或变得沮丧，因为他们追求的东西不再重要，他们感觉不到区别。他们只是快乐地适应了。

Pieter (12:12): 彼得（12：12）：
Dude, athletes. Athletes when they retire always, you have a lot… In Europe, footballers when they retire, they get really depressed. I think in US of NFL players as well, but I think it is jarring because society promised you that this would’ve solved everything. This would solve your money situation, your friend situation, your relationship situation.
伙计，运动员。当运动员退役的时候，你有很多…在欧洲，足球运动员退役后会非常沮丧。我认为在美国的NFL球员以及，但我认为这是不和谐的，因为社会向你承诺，这将解决一切。这将解决你的金钱问题，你的朋友问题，你的关系问题。

Pieter (12:34): 彼得（12：34）：
Money solves everything they say. It’s just not true. It’s just simply not true. It solves some things. Then you need to, like you say, it’s jarring. So you need to go back to what really makes me intrinsically happy? It was probably the thing that made you start working on stuff when you were eight years old. Like making something, like creating games or apps or whatever or paintings or drawings, that you didn’t do that for a reason. You just did that because it was fun and that’s how you got here.
钱能解决一切问题。这不是真的只是这不是真的。它解决了一些事情。那你就得，就像你说的，很刺耳所以你需要回到真正让我快乐的本质上？可能就是它让你在八岁的时候就开始工作。比如做一些东西，比如做游戏或应用程序或其他东西，或者绘画或素描，你没有这样做是有原因的。你这么做是因为好玩所以你才能走到今天。

Courtland (13:03):
Yeah. It’s pretty awesome to be in a position where the thing that you did to basically earn your financial freedom is also one of the things that you like doing the most. And I think if you have that, then once you get to that point of financial freedom, you don’t have to change anything. Because you’re like, “What got me here, actually, I really love. I love the process itself.”

Courtland (13:22):
So even if the goal is gone, the process is it’s own goal. It’s like if I look at my life, I love coding. I love designing. I love sitting down and making a new project and I’ve done it a bunch times for free with no hope of any money just because it was fun to do because I have some idea that I have in my head and I want to get out.

Courtland (13:39): 考特兰（13：39）：
I think I’ve also probably much more so than you, allowed myself to be sort of co-oped into like, “Well, I’m doing this for some goal. I’m doing this because I’m trying to get to financial freedom and et cetera, et cetera.” At some point, the goal can kind of co-op the process and you become more obsessed with the reason you’re doing it than the fact that it’s fun to do.
我想我也可能比你多得多，让自己有点像，“嗯，我这样做是为了一些目标。我这么做是因为我想实现财务自由等等。“在某种程度上，目标可以合作的过程中，你变得更加痴迷于你这样做的原因，而不是事实，这是有趣的。

Courtland (13:59): 考特兰（13：59）：
I think with me, what I’ve experienced has been kind of like… This was like I kind of got the goal, achieved what I wanted to achieve and now it’s like, “Well, do I even doing the activity anymore?” I forgot what that was because I haven’t done it just for its own sake in so many years.
我觉得我的经历有点像…这就像我有了目标，实现了我想实现的目标，现在就像，“好吧，我还在做这个活动吗？“我忘了那是什么，因为我这么多年来没有这样做过。

Courtland (14:16): 考特兰（14：16）：
And so it’s like I have to relearn my love for that, if that makes sense. I also have to get over this weird mental state that I think Silicon valley is really toxic for depending on the tribe you’re part of. It’s where you’re like no, no, no. It’s not good enough to just do something for its own sake. You have to be going for some bigger, better goal. Why aren’t you starting the next bigger company to get to the next level of wealth or fame or success.
所以我必须重新学习我对它的爱，如果这有意义的话。我还必须克服这种奇怪的精神状态，我认为硅谷真的很有毒，因为它依赖于你所在的部落。你就像是不，不，不。仅仅为了自己做一件事是不够的。你必须追求更大更好的目标。你为什么不创办下一家更大的公司，以达到财富、名声或成功的下一个层次。

Courtland (14:42): 考特兰（14：42）：
If you have that in the back of your mind, it can be so hard to just appreciate doing simple, fun things because you’re like, “Well, is this enough? Am I using my full potential?” You get this nagging, unnecessary feeling that I don’t think needs to be there, but can take some work to kind of shrug off.
如果你有这种想法，你就很难去欣赏做简单有趣的事情，因为你会想，“好吧，这就够了吗？我是否发挥了全部潜力？“你会有这种唠叨，不必要的感觉，我不认为需要在那里，但可以采取一些工作，有点耸耸肩。

Pieter (14:58): 彼得（14：58）：
I think at the stage you’re in now, if this is the stage you’re in which you just said, I would just start a new project. That’s what I would do. I would just be like, “Yeah. I don’t really feel all this stuff.”
我认为在你现在所处的阶段，如果这是你刚才所说的阶段，我会开始一个新的项目。我也会这么做。我只会说，“是的。我对这些东西没什么感觉。“

Courtland (15:08):
Next thing.

Pieter (15:08):
Let the old thing run and be so automated. I’ll just go work on new stuff and try new stuff and then I’ll dive in something new because I’m bored with the old. First of all, I love Indie Hackers, but I almost think you have so much creative energy to create things that it’d be lovely to see that energy be funneled into a new project, something different.

Courtland (15:34):
I like the way that you’ve done it with Nomad List. It’s so smart. Because you’re doing these things that are new projects, but like you said, it’s also kind of a marketing trick. Because these are so part of what Nomad List is, they could just be Nomad List/Rebase, Nomad List/Jobs.

Courtland (15:52):
With me with Indie Hackers, I don’t have that separate strategy where I do these different things. And so it can kind of feel the slog where I’m working the same thing, same thing, same thing. But if I could maybe take a page out of your playbook and just do different things because most of the things I’m interested in doing are very related, but they could have a different name living in a different website and just feel fresher.

Pieter (16:12): 彼得（16：12）：
Yeah. You can always put them back later, right?
是啊你以后可以把它们放回去的，对吧？

Courtland (16:15): 考特兰（16：15）：
Yeah. What about the practical parts of money and investing? I know a lot of people who make more money end up switching from this mode of, “Okay, earlier I was trying to earn my freedom, but now that I’m here, I’m trying to protect what I have or I’m trying to invest it wisely.”
是啊那么金钱和投资的实际部分呢？我知道很多赚更多钱的人最终会从这种模式中转变过来，“好吧，早些时候我试图赢得自由，但现在我在这里，我试图保护我所拥有的，或者我试图明智地投资。“

Courtland (16:30): 考特兰（16：30）：
That’s a whole different skill set. Building a startup, it’s very different than investing in crypto or the stock market or ETFs, whatever. How has that changed for you? What are you doing with your money basically?
这是完全不同的技能。建立一家创业公司，与投资加密货币、股票市场或ETF等非常不同。这对你来说有什么改变？你基本上都在用你的钱做什么？

Pieter (16:42): 彼得（16：42）：
Yeah. I’ve been tweeting a lot about ETFs. I know the thing today is to tweet about crypto, invest in crypto. Of course, but I think crypto might be the future and I invest in crypto too. But investing in the stock market is also the future still, I think. A good way to invest in the stock market and I learned this from Matt Kotz, from Google, he had a blog about how he invests his money.
是啊我在推特上发了很多关于ETF的消息。我知道今天的事情是在推特上谈论加密，投资加密。当然，但我认为加密可能是未来，我也投资加密。但我认为，投资股市也是未来的趋势。这是一个投资股市的好方法，我从谷歌的马特·科茨那里学到了这一点，他有一个关于如何投资的博客。

Pieter (17:10): 彼得（17：10）：
He wrote about, he puts almost all of his money in Vanguard ETFs. ETFs are funds that you can buy. They’re just stocks, but instead of a stock, one stock, you buy a Microsoft, you buy a thousand stocks at the same time through an ETF. It’s a basket of stocks. And that means that if Microsoft goes up, you profit.
他写道，他把几乎所有的钱都投入了先锋ETF。ETF是您可以购买的基金。它们只是股票，但不是一只股票，一只股票，你买一个微软，你通过ETF同时购买一千只股票。是一篮子股票。这意味着，如果微软上涨，你就获利。

Pieter (17:30): 彼得（17：30）：
But if Microsoft goes down and Apple goes up, you still profit because they balance each other out. So you get a more balanced return.
但如果微软走下坡路，苹果走上坡路，你仍然会获利，因为它们相互平衡。所以你会得到更平衡的回报。

Courtland (17:39): 考特兰（17：39）：
Diversifying a bit. 多样化一点。

Pieter (17:39): 彼得（17：39）：
Diversifying, it’s just diversifying and it’s very cheap. The fees are 0.01% with Vanguard or something. It took me a year to in understand stuff. Because it’s kind of complicated. It’s not very accessible, but I think more people should learn about it because with most brokers, you can just open an account interactive brokers or I don’t know, the trade apps and you can buy an ETF. I know it makes more sense from your gambling casino hearts, as we all have. You want to gamble your money like, “I think Apple’s going to go up.”
多样化，它只是多样化，而且非常便宜。Vanguard或其他公司的费用是0.01%。我花了一年的时间才明白。因为这有点复杂。这不是很容易，但我认为更多的人应该了解它，因为与大多数经纪人，你可以只打开一个帐户互动经纪人或我不知道，贸易应用程序，你可以购买ETF。我知道这更有意义从你的赌博赌场的心，因为我们都有。你想赌你的钱，“我认为苹果会上涨。“

Pieter (18:11): 彼得（18：11）：
But statistically over long term, it makes more sense to diversify your money and just put it in a basket of stocks and that’s what ETFs are.
但从长期来看，从统计数据来看，分散你的资金更有意义，把它放在一篮子股票中，这就是ETF。

Courtland (18:20): 考特兰（18：20）：
Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense and it’s something that I hear associated with… It’s like the beginning of your career. You don’t have any money. You’re trying to do something. You’re the opposite of diversified. You’re like, “I’m going all in on my startup. All my money is going to me doing this thing.”
是啊我认为这很有意义，我听到的东西与…就像你事业的开始。你没有钱。你想做点什么。你跟多元化正好相反。你就像是，“我要全身心投入我的创业。我所有的钱都用来做这件事了。“

Courtland (18:35): 考特兰（18：35）：
And then when you start to make your money, it’s like, “Okay. Well, I don’t want to lose this. I don’t want to be a super risky…” I guess there’s some people who are, “I’m putting it all on crypto,” but it’s probably not the wisest thing. And if you want to sort of maintain what you’re doing and maintain your lifestyle and keep the freedom that you have and you’re not sort of obsessed with just getting more and more and more and more, I think it’s not uncommon at all to do what you’re doing and sort of diversify, try to keep it stable and then focus on what you love rather than just obsessively trying to make as much money as possible.
然后当你开始赚钱的时候，就像，“好吧。我不想失去这个。我不想成为一个超级冒险的…“我想有些人是，”我把它都放在加密上，“但这可能不是最明智的事情。如果你想保持你所做的事情，保持你的生活方式，保持你所拥有的自由，你不会沉迷于越来越多，越来越多，我认为这并不罕见，做你正在做的事情，多样化，试着保持稳定，然后专注于你喜欢的事情，而不是只是痴迷地试图尽可能多地赚钱。

Pieter (19:05): 彼得（19：05）：
100%. I think it’s common with tech people that are very well-read and stuff. But I think it’s very uncommon with people who aren’t and they usually invest in individual stocks and that’s statistically just a very bad idea. It just underperforms over the long run. I think that’s a good thing to talk about, to tell people kind of avoid individual stocks. But yeah, this is not financial advice podcasts, but you asked me.
百分百确定我认为这对那些博览群书的技术人员来说很常见。但我认为这是非常罕见的人谁不是，他们通常投资于个股，这是一个非常糟糕的主意。从长远来看，它只是表现不佳。我认为这是一件好事，告诉人们避免个股。但是，是的，这不是财务建议播客，但你问我。

Pieter (19:31): 彼得（19：31）：
But I do also invest in crypto. I’ve been buying Bitcoin since 2013 when it was $32 Bitcoin and I used to have 162 Bitcoin. I think it would be $11 million now. I lost it though. I day traded it away. That was also a lesson. Don’t day trade, just hold, huddle.
但我也投资加密货币。我从2013年开始购买比特币，当时它是32美元，我曾经有162个比特币。我想现在是1100万美元。但我失去了它。我把它卖掉了。这也是一个教训。不要做日内交易，只是持有，挤在一起。

Courtland (19:55):
I’ve had similar things happen.
我也经历过类似的事情。

Pieter (19:57):
Really?

Courtland (19:57):
I owned really Bitcoin and Ethereum back when they were sub a couple of hundred bucks and I also spent a lot of time trading in the 2008 market, after the crash or whatever, with very little money because I was in college and I had a consulting job.

Courtland (20:09):
But in hindsight, if I had just not day traded it and I just kept the stocks that I bought and just not touched it for the last 12 years, all of that’s 10Xed. It’s like okay, well lesson learned.
但事后看来，如果我没有日内交易，我只是保留了我买的股票，在过去的12年里没有碰过它，所有这些都是10倍的。就像是好吧，吸取教训。

Pieter (20:20): 彼得（20：20）：
Yeah. Lesson learned, but that’s a lesson you need to become 30 to learn that. But if you’re 20, you can skip this whole lesson. You can just buy now, buy these diversified stock forms and hold crypto. But hold it for long term. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (20:34): 重试    错误原因
Well, when you’re 20, 10 years seems an eternity. If you told 20-year-old Courtland, “Just hold for 10 years,” I’d be like, “I’m not going to be alive in 10 years. The world might be over in 10 years. 10 years, are you kidding me? What are you talking about?” Now at 34, I’m like, “Okay. 10 years seems reasonable. It’s not that long. I’ll be patient.” 重试    错误原因

Pieter (20:53): 重试    错误原因
I think when I was 20, I was reading Mr. Money Mustache randomly, this blog. And he was also about the FIRE movement and about compounding interest and I learned all this concept and he, he said something, “Even if you don’t make a lot of money, just start saving now. Pay off all your debt and saving every month a $100.” 重试    错误原因

Pieter (21:08): 重试    错误原因
So I started logging the groceries I bought and I started buying $100 less groceries a month to save this $100. After a year, I had $1,200 saved and I was really happy. And then I put it in a, I think a CD, a deposit for five years and got nice interest. Because he was like compounding interest, when you start early it really adds up, even if you don’t make a lot of money.
所以我开始记录我买的食品杂货，我开始每月少买100美元的食品杂货来保存这100美元。一年后，我存了1,200美元，我真的很高兴。然后我把它放在一个，我想是一张CD，一个存款五年，得到了很好的利息。因为他就像复利，当你开始早，它真的加起来，即使你没有赚很多钱。

Pieter (21:33): 彼得（21：33）：
I was like, “Okay, cool.” These are good lessons also what you said about people losing their money. It’s really common with rich people that they lose their money, really, really common. There’s this friend, Gabo, who made a ETF websites a blog explaining ETFs. He shows that if some rich people lost all their money, if they would’ve just put it in the ETF of the S&P500 for 20 years, this is the amount of money they would’ve made. And this is a lot of money, like hundreds of millions. But instead, they’re bankrupt by investing in shady deals.
我说“好吧酷“这些都是很好的教训，也是你所说的人们失去他们的钱。有钱人丢了钱是很正常的，真的，真的很正常。我有个朋友叫Gabo，他做了一个ETF网站一个解释ETF的博客.他指出，如果一些富人失去了所有的钱，如果他们把钱放在标准普尔500指数的ETF中20年，这就是他们会赚的钱。这是一大笔钱，像数亿美元。但相反，他们却因投资于见不得人的交易而破产。

Courtland (22:05): 考特兰（22：05）：
Can you imagine if you lost all the money that you made from working on your projects for the last [inaudible 00:22:11].
你能想象如果你失去了所有的钱，你从你的项目工作的最后[听不见00：22：11]。

Pieter (22:12): 彼得（22：12）：
It’s horrible. I cannot imagine having that kind of personality where you start investing in just random stuff and you lose everything. Elon Musk did it. Again, Elon Musk, but he invested all his funds from selling Zip2, I think or PayPal into SpaceX.
太可怕了我无法想象有这样的个性，你开始投资只是随机的东西，你失去了一切。埃隆·马斯克做到了。又一次，埃隆·马斯克，但他把所有的钱都投到了SpaceX上，我想是通过出售Zip2或PayPal。

Courtland (22:31): 考特兰（22：31）：
Just huge gamble. This might ruin me.
只是一场豪赌。这可能会毁了我。

Pieter (22:33):
Yeah, yeah. If it would’ve ruined him, we wouldn’t hear about him now. But I don’t think you should take these outlier results as examples to do things in life. I think you should look at statistics and studies to see what you should do. To me, that sounds ETFs and Bitcoin and Ethereum, mostly ETFs. Yeah.
是啊是啊如果这会毁了他，我们现在就不会听到他的消息了。但我不认为你应该把这些离群的结果作为例子来做生活中的事情。我认为你应该看看统计数据和研究，看看你应该做什么。对我来说，这听起来像是ETF、比特币和以太坊，主要是ETF。是啊

Courtland (22:54): 考特兰（22：54）：
What about you were talking about your investing habits. There’s people on Twitter who also wanted to know, just like your productivity habits, because you ship a crazy amount of stuff. Like we were saying earlier, you haven’t missed a day in over a thousand days. I think that’s not common. It’s very difficult. I think for people to get onto the treadmill of working consistently at all. And then it’s very easy to fall off that treadmill and have trouble getting back on. It’s like what are you doing to help you sort of be so prolific and productive?
你刚才说的是你的投资习惯。Twitter上的人也想知道，就像你的生产力习惯一样，因为你运送了大量的东西。就像我们之前说的，你一千多天来一天都没错过。我认为这并不常见。这很难我认为人们应该坚持工作。然后你很容易从跑步机上摔下来，很难再回到跑步机上。这就像你在做什么来帮助你变得如此多产和富有成效？

Pieter (23:24): 彼得（23：24）：
Yeah. I use the site called Wip. It’s kind of a competitor to [inaudible 00:23:28] a little bit, wip.co, and it’s kind of a tracking system for your to-dos for any makers kind of. Made by my friend, Mark. I think you should buy the websites. I think you should acquire Indie Hack, you should acquire Wip. I’ve always tell you, but I think they would work really well together. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (23:44): 重试    错误原因
But you can just log your to-dos on Telegram, this chat app and also on the website. It’s a very easy way for me to do… I also log my life stuff, sometimes even food logs and stuff. I just do /done, fix bug, joint button. Nomad List doesn’t work. #Nomadlist. And then add a screen shot, sometimes a video and that’s it. And that gives me a really accountable public log of what I’m doing. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (24:12): 重试    错误原因
It’s really nice. I think Jerry Seinfeld talked about this chart where, on the calendar, you do a cross and you don’t want to break the chain when you want to learn something or something. I think that’s the same thing. You want to do the streak, you don’t want to break the chain and… But even without that, it kind of just happens where I wake up and I check the errors I receive, my robots send me errors on telegram like what happens when I sleep for example.
真的很不错我想杰瑞·宋飞说过这个图表，在日历上，你做一个十字架，当你想学点什么的时候，你不想打破这个链条。我觉得这是一回事。你想做的连胜，你不想打破链和…但即使没有这些，它也会发生在我醒来时，我检查我收到的错误，我的机器人在电报上向我发送错误，就像我睡觉时发生的事情一样。

Pieter (24:41):
And I kind of check like okay, this is a problem we need to fix. My robots control me and manage me and give me instructions what to work on the next day. I kind of need to, because people are like… I don’t have much staff. I have some contractors, but they don’t really develop. So it’s kind of on me to keep the customers happy and it’s really fun to do that, I think.
我就像这样检查，好吧，这是一个我们需要解决的问题。我的机器人控制我，管理我，给予我指示第二天要做什么。我有点需要，因为人们就像…我没有太多的员工。我有一些承包商，但他们不真的开发。所以让顾客满意是我的责任，我认为这样做真的很有趣。

Courtland (25:05): 考特兰（25：05）：
Yeah. You are number two on the leaderboard. You’ve got a 1040 days shipped in a row. Someone named Niels is right above you. They have 1,114 days.
是啊你在排行榜上排名第二。你已经连续1040天发货了。一个叫尼尔斯的人就在你上面他们有1,114天。

Pieter (25:13): 彼得（25：13）：
Niels is on the island next to me. It’s kind of funny. Yeah. He’s also in Thailand.
尼尔斯就在我旁边的岛上。有点好笑。是啊他也在泰国。

Courtland (25:20): 考特兰（25：20）：
This whole product is super interesting to me because it’s like… Whip’s kind of social in some ways because you can see everyone else who’s shipping and I guess in a way, that makes you accountable, especially if you get to really hang on the leaderboard. You know that people know that you’re high on the leaderboard. You probably don’t want to lose that status.
这整个产品对我来说超级有趣，因为它就像…在某种程度上，鞭子是一种社交工具，因为你可以看到其他所有在发货的人，我想在某种程度上，这让你负责，特别是如果你真的挂在排行榜上。你知道大家都知道你在排行榜上名列前茅。你可能不想失去这个地位。

Courtland (25:35): 考特兰（25：35）：
But then also, there’s this idea of building in public and it’s like there’s almost no better place to do that than Twitter. Because you get the most feedback, you get… Because I post on Web2 and it’s really good for me solitarily is motivation. I want to break the chain. But then if I want people to respond to me, I post it on Twitter.
但是，还有一个想法是在公共场合建造，就好像没有比Twitter更好的地方了。因为你得到的反馈最多，你得到…因为我在Web2上发帖，这对我来说真的很好，孤独是动力。我想打破这条锁链。但如果我想让人们回应我，我会在Twitter上发布。

Courtland (25:50): 考特兰（25：50）：
On Indie Hackers, we’ve kind of tried to do this too with these product directory pages where you can sort of have a timeline of your progress, but I feel no one’s really cracked the code of what’s the best way to sort of help people with their goal of building in public and ideally help them build an audience as a result for that? And then simultaneously solve this problem where you’re motivating them and making them accountable and helping them be productive.
在Indie Hackers上，我们也尝试过这样做，在这些产品目录页面上，你可以有一个时间轴来记录你的进展，但我觉得没有人真正破解了什么是最好的方法来帮助人们实现他们在公共场合建立的目标，并理想地帮助他们建立一个观众作为结果？然后同时解决这个问题，你激励他们，让他们负责任，帮助他们提高生产力。

Pieter (26:12): 彼得（26：12）：
Yeah. Yeah. I think Twitter’s the easiest, because it has this whole audience already. It has millions of users, so everybody can see your tweets.
是啊是啊我认为Twitter是最简单的，因为它已经拥有了所有的观众。它有数百万用户，所以每个人都可以看到你的推文。

Courtland (26:20): 考特兰（26：20）：
But you probably don’t post little updates like, “Fix the color of this button,” on Twitter.
但你可能不会在Twitter上发布诸如“修复此按钮的颜色”之类的小更新。

Pieter (26:24): 彼得（26：24）：
No, it’s too small. It’s too basic. But you want to show a big feature or a really big problem you solved. You want to tell the story kind of, so that’s more for Twitter. So this is more for small things, but the building in public thing, for a while, I thought live coding was going to be a big thing.
不，它太小了。太简单了。但是你想展示一个大功能或者你解决的一个真正的大问题。你想讲故事的那种，所以这是更多的Twitter。所以这更多的是针对小事情，但是公共建筑的事情，有一段时间，我认为现场编码将是一件大事。

Pieter (26:40): 彼得（26：40）：
The build in public live coding, it was the 24 hour startup. I think we had with Pat Walls and Armin Made That.
在公共现场编码的构建，这是24小时启动。我想我们有帕特·沃尔斯和阿明做的。

Courtland (26:46): 考特兰（26：46）：
[inaudible 00:26:46] on Twitch.
[2019 - 01 - 02 00：00：00]关于Twitch

Pieter (26:46): 彼得（26：46）：
Yeah, exactly. It was kind of looked it was going to be a thing. I’ve tried. It’s so stressful. I can’t do it and I think that’s the problem kind with it. You need to sit there for hours, people watching you and it’s really fun, but it’s too intense for me. So I don’t know.
是啊看起来这会成为一件事。我试过了压力太大了我不能这样做，我认为这就是问题所在。你需要坐在那里几个小时，人们看着你，这真的很有趣，但对我来说太紧张了。所以我不知道。

Courtland (27:06): 考特兰（27：06）：
Even the gamers who do that are constantly stressed out about having to always be performing because it’s not enough for them to just play the game and be good at it, they have to entertain this audience on Twitch who’s going to criticize and scrutinize their every move. It’s like, “Do you really want to be on camera for hours while you’re working and having a bunch of like…”
即使是这样做的游戏玩家也会不断强调必须始终保持表演，因为他们只是玩游戏并擅长它是不够的，他们必须在Twitch上娱乐这些观众，他们会批评和审查他们的一举一动。这就像，“你真的想在镜头上几个小时，而你的工作和有一堆像.“

Pieter (27:23): 彼得（27：23）：
I don’t know. I kept leaking API keys. Every stream, I leaked API keys. It was insane. And then I would get stuck on a problem, which every day I get stuck on a problem where I just need to walk around and think about it or lie down, but you can’t lie down because there’s 90 people watching, so you’re trying to fix this problem you’re sweating and it’s stressful. You see the viewer is dropping because it’s not interesting anymore. Because they only like when you’re making new stuff.
我不知道我一直在泄露API密钥。每一个数据流，我都泄露了API密钥。太疯狂了然后我会被一个问题卡住，每天我都会被一个问题卡住，我只需要四处走走，思考一下，或者躺下来，但你不能躺下来，因为有90个人在看，所以你试图解决这个问题，你出汗，压力很大。你看观众人数在下降，因为它不再有趣了。因为他们只喜欢你做的新东西。

Pieter (27:51): 彼得（27：51）：
I respect if you can do it, but I can’t do it anymore. it’s just too intense.
如果你能做到我很尊重，但我不能再做了。太紧张了。

Courtland (27:56): 考特兰（27：56）：
I’ve never tried it and I never plan to. I also have like… My sort of productivity tricks are, I’ve kind of copied your note, you’re sort of post-its.
我从没试过也没打算试。我还有…我的效率技巧是，我复制了你的便条，你就像是便利贴。

Pieter (28:07): 彼得（28：07）：
Post-its. Yes, yes. Yes. 便利贴是的是的是的

Courtland (28:08): 考特兰（28：08）：
I love post-its. Most of my post-its have always been little reminders to myself. So if I show you my monitor, I’ve got these reminders and my romantic relationships, here’s how I can be better, I can be more vulnerable, blah, blah, blah. Other parts of my life, like exercise… I have a post-it note where I look at it and I have to do 20 pushups.
我喜欢便利贴。我的大多数便利贴都是对自己的小小提醒。如果我给你看我的显示器，我有这些提醒和我的浪漫关系，这是我如何变得更好，我可以更脆弱，等等。我生活的其他部分，比如锻炼…我有一张便利贴，我看着它，我必须做20个俯卧撑。

Pieter (28:28): 彼得（28：28）：
Dude that’s amazing. 伙计，太棒了。

Courtland (28:29): 考特兰（28：29）：
I consciously avoid looking at it most of the day, but then I sometimes do and it’s just like whatever. I just end up doing pushups every day because of this note. But I never thought-
我有意识地避免在一天的大部分时间里看它，但有时我会这样做，它就像什么。就因为这张纸条我每天都要做俯卧撑。但我从没想过…

Pieter (28:36): 彼得（28：36）：
You see, you lose, this thing.
你看，你输了，这件事。

Courtland (28:38): 考特兰（28：38）：
Yeah. Exactly. You see it, you lose. But you do post-its, I think, for tasks and productivity, all you have to do that. I just started doing that a couple of weeks ago and I love it. It’s so easy.
是啊没错你看到了，你就输了。但是你做便利贴，我认为，为了任务和生产力，你必须这样做。我几周前才开始做，我喜欢它。它很简单。

Pieter (28:48): 彼得（28：48）：
Yeah. It’s so simple. I use windows for it. Not Windows, operating, I use the window of hotel rooms or apartments, whatever. I put it on the window and I make a grid of things. And then on the other side, I do the stuff that I finish. I take it, I put it on my laptop and I focus on that task in particular. And then when it’s done, I take it and I put it on the finished part of the window.
是啊很简单我用窗户来做。不是窗户，操作，我用酒店房间或公寓的窗户，不管是什么。我把它贴在窗户上做成网格状。然后在另一边，我做我完成的东西。我把它放在我的笔记本电脑上，我特别专注于这项任务。当它完成后，我把它放在窗户的成品上。

Pieter (29:11): 彼得（29：11）：
It’s kind of a combo of using post-it notes and also using the web chat. But post-it notes, it’s really nice. You can really… I’ll take an hour or something to figure out every thing that I need to do, every bug that’s remaining and I collect everything from online and I write it down and I saw this study, I think, that said writing things down on paper, you use a different part of your brain than if you write it down digitally.
这是一种使用便利贴和网络聊天的组合。但是便利贴真的很不错。你真的可以…我会花一个小时左右的时间来弄清楚我需要做的每一件事，每一个遗留下来的错误，我从网上收集所有的东西，我把它写下来，我看到这个研究，我认为，把东西写在纸上，你使用你大脑的一个不同的部分，而不是你用数字写下来。

Pieter (29:39): 彼得（29：39）：
There’s something about writing on paper that’s different. I think that’s true for me. The physical act of taking the post-its and like, “Okay, this is what we’re going to do now. Fix the joint button on Nomad List.” And I put it on my screen and I work on that, it’s really nice feeling because I don’t want to fix the joint button on Nomad List. I want to finish this to-do, it’s like a hack. I want to take this post-it note, put it on the window and-
写在纸上的东西是不同的。我想这对我来说是真的。拿着即时贴的身体动作，就像，“好了，这就是我们现在要做的。修正游牧名单上的关节按钮。“我把它放在我的屏幕上，我在上面工作，这真的很好的感觉，因为我不想修复游牧名单上的联合按钮。我想把这件事做完，这就像一个黑客。我想把这张便利贴贴在窗户上-

Courtland (30:03): 考特兰（30：03）：
Move it. 动起来

Pieter (30:05): 彼得（30：05）：
Yes. That’s what it’s really about. It’s not about the bug. I hate the bug. I don’t care about the bug. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (30:10): 重试    错误原因
Do you ever almost forget to do what to do any day? Has there ever been a day where you almost lost your thousand days streak because you forgot to do something and had to do something late at night or is it just automatic and so obviously easy to you? 重试    错误原因

Pieter (30:24): 重试    错误原因
Almost. Yeah. Almost. I just do it when I wake up. I do a small thing immediately. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (30:28): 重试    错误原因
It’s a habit. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (30:31): 重试    错误原因
You don’t want to lose the streak. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (30:33): 重试    错误原因
Did you see that book? It’s like the most popular book on Amazon in every category and every sort of vertical? 重试    错误原因

Pieter (30:39): 重试    错误原因
In human history. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (30:41): 重试    错误原因
It’s like the most [inaudible 00:30:43]. I had him on this show and I had him on a different podcast I have called Brains and I talked about his book and he just tweeted, “Yeah, it’s the best-selling book on Amazon period.” He’s crushing it. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (30:55): 重试    错误原因
Every tech guy, well, every tech bro or something or you want to call it, “Yeah man, you shouldn’t make goals. You should create systems.” I know which book you read, man.
每一个技术人员，嗯，每一个技术兄弟或什么的，或者你想称之为，“是的，伙计，你不应该制定目标。你必须建立系统。“我知道你读过什么书，先生。

Courtland (31:08): 考特兰（31：08）：
Yep. My mom was telling me the same thing. I’m like, “Mom, people are stressed out. She’s like, “Create systems instead of goals.” I’m like, “Damn! This book is too popular.” It’s crazy.
是的我妈妈也跟我说过同样的话。我说“妈妈大家都压力太大了她说，“建立系统而不是目标。“我说“该死这本书太受欢迎了。“这太疯狂了。

Courtland (31:18): 考特兰（31：18）：
I want to ask you about one more time before we get out of here. I’m curious about your thoughts on just the future. Because you’re always on the web, you are tweeting about Web3 and crypto and trying live coding and stuff like that. I tend to get my head buried into work and then I come up for air every year and I’m like, “What’s going on?” What do you think about these new trends? What do you think about Web3? What do you think about crypto? I’ve been trying to get into a little bit more and research it and I think it’s quite cool. There’s some upsides and downsides, but I don’t know what you think. What are your thoughts on all this?
在我们离开这里之前我想再问你一次。我很好奇你对未来的想法。因为你总是在网上，你在推特上谈论Web3和加密，尝试现场编码之类的东西。我倾向于把头埋在工作中，然后每年我都会出来透透气，我会说，“发生什么事了？“你怎么看待这些新趋势？你觉得Web3怎么样？你觉得加密货币怎么样？我一直在尝试深入研究它，我觉得它很酷。有好有坏，但我不知道你怎么想。你对这一切有什么看法？

Pieter (31:48): 彼得（31：48）：
Yeah. Man, it’s taking the world by storm. Last week, I was retweeted by Jack, from Twitter and my notifications went crazy because I repost this meme about Web3, which was just a picture I found somewhere and I posted it. I was like, “This is kind of funny.” And it showed Web3, this funnel of water coming out and then going into the mouth of VCs, venture capital investors, a lot of water and then some drips were left for the retail investors.
是啊天啊，这可是席卷全球的。上周，我被Jack从Twitter上转发了，我的通知疯了，因为我转发了这个关于Web3的米姆，这只是我在某个地方找到的一张照片，我把它贴了出来。我想，“这有点有趣。“它显示了Web3，这个漏斗的水出来，然后进入风投，风险投资者的嘴，很多水，然后一些滴水是留给散户投资者。

Pieter (32:17): 彼得（32：17）：
The kind of sounded it’s matched with what I saw on the… Because I follow a lot of Web3 projects and I follow which projects are new. There’s a telegram channel, you can’t follow everything. What I was observing was that almost every project I saw, there was a big, I’m not going to name, but a big VC firm in there.
听起来和我在…因为我关注了很多Web3项目，我关注哪些项目是新的。有个电报频道，你不能什么都听。我观察到的是，几乎我看到的每一个项目，都有一个大的，我不打算说出名字，但一个大的风险投资公司在那里。

Pieter (32:38): 彼得（32：38）：
I was like, “Interesting!” They’re in every Web3 project. And then I saw Jack tweeting about this. I was like oh, this meme kind of makes sense. So I tweeted and it was insane. It went crazy. And then Jack retweeted and I got so much hate and also I think 600 retweets or something, a thousand retweets.
我就说“有意思“他们在每个Web 3项目中。然后我看到杰克在推特上说了这个。我就像是，哦，这个模因有点道理。所以我发了推特，太疯狂了。它变得疯狂。然后杰克转发了我，我得到了这么多的仇恨，我也认为600转发或东西，一千转发。

Pieter (32:56): 彼得（32：56）：
So it’s a sensitive topic to talk about because they’re so… I’m a crypto investor. I’m invested in it, but I also can criticize it kind of or market as a joke. Like, “Come on. Everything should be Markable, but apparently you cannot do it with Web3.” And I got blocked by Mark Andreessen and Chris Dixon, but I didn’t even mention them. I just posted a meme about Web3. I don’t know. It’s just all kind of funny.
所以这是个敏感的话题因为他们太…我是加密货币投资者我投资了它，但我也可以批评它的一种或市场作为一个笑话。就像，“拜托，一切都应该是可标记的，但显然你不能用Web 3来做。“我被马克-安德森和克里斯-狄克逊挡住了，但我甚至没有提到他们。我刚刚发布了一个关于Web 3的meme。我不知道只是有点好笑。

Courtland (33:20): 考特兰（33：20）：
They blocked you because you posted the name and Jack retweeted it and they saw it because he retweeted it probably and they’re like-
他们屏蔽你是因为你发布了这个名字，杰克转发了它，他们看到了，因为他可能转发了它，他们就像-

Pieter (33:21): 彼得（33：21）：
And then they blocked Jack and they blocked me. It was just a cartoon. It’s so ridiculous. Mark Andreesen followed me before that. He was a follower. Damn! Sad. But anyway, it’s all kind of interesting. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (33:42): 重试    错误原因
I do think it’s a future in many ways, like the smart contact stuff. It’s a really slow computer that’s decentralized and stuff. Everybody knows how it works by now. I think what I really don’t about it is that a really big percentage of the projects are bump and dump, how they feel. They’re pretty mind then giving them off to VC investors to buy into and then they end up… 重试    错误原因

Pieter (34:04):
I know people in this crypto world and they go to the big crypto exchanges, they pay money. I think it’s 150K to get listed. And then this coin once it gets listed, everybody who knows it’s going to get listed already bought in, which is insider trading which is legal because it’s crypto.
我认识这个加密世界的人，他们去大型加密交易所，他们付钱。我想上市要15万。然后这个硬币一旦上市，每个知道它会上市的人都已经买了，这是内幕交易，这是法律的，因为它是加密货币。

Pieter (34:21): 彼得（34：21）：
And then it pumps 10Xs and if you invest a hundred million, you just made a billion dollars. This is legal, but is it… Maybe we would be doing the same thing if we had all that money. But all I’m saying is that I don’t… Man, it’s so difficult to criticize because I’m not very well debated with all this stuff. I don’t have all the data. I think the technology is very promising. I don’t like all the bumping and the, “We’re all going to get rich.”
然后它泵10倍，如果你投资1亿美元，你就赚了10亿美元。这是法律的，但它是.如果我们有那么多钱，也许我们也会做同样的事情。但我想说的是我不…伙计，批评是如此困难，因为我不是很好地与所有这些东西辩论。我没有所有的数据。我认为这项技术非常有前途。我不喜欢所有的碰撞和，“我们都要发财。“

Pieter (34:47): 彼得（34：47）：
Because I don’t think… That’s not possible. That’s not how it works. You need to get in now, this FOMO stuff. It has all of the red flags of every internet bubble and tulip bubble and all this stuff. I don’t think that’s interesting stuff. I bought an NFT too. I bought the Poolsuite NFT by Poolsites, Poolsuite they’re called now. It’s like a members card and it went up a lot and then people are, “Look, you get it. This is how it works.” 重试    错误原因

Pieter (35:14): 重试    错误原因
I’m like, “No, I don’t get it. Why? What are we doing here?” There’s no intrinsic… I look sides and pull. I like the concept. But a lot of the NFTs, there’s no intrinsic value there or it’s very… You know what I mean? My gut tells me something’s really off. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (35:31): 重试    错误原因
I think there’s a lot of this excitement, “Okay. This is a revolution for artists. I know a handful of artists who made a lot of money and so therefore every artist is going to be able make money.” Or, “It’s a revolution for music. Now, every musician’s going to be able to make a lot of money.”
我想有很多这种兴奋，“好吧。这对艺术家来说是一场革命。我知道一些艺术家赚了很多钱，所以每个艺术家都能赚钱。或者说：“这是音乐的革命。现在，每个音乐家都能赚很多钱。“

Courtland (35:45): 考特兰（35：45）：
What feels off to me is well, there’s still going to be the power-law dynamics where the most popular people are going to get the most listens and watches and whatever. There’s still going to be people who are probably pretty good who aren’t that good at marketing who no one sees their stuff.
对我来说，感觉不太对劲的是，仍然会有幂律动态，最受欢迎的人会得到最多的倾听和观看等等。仍然会有一些人可能很擅长营销，但却没有人看到他们的东西。

Courtland (35:58): 考特兰（35：58）：
I don’t see how crypto is really going to suddenly make everybody rich. It seems really scammy and doesn’t make any sense. But it gives really smart, reputable people saying this.
我不认为加密货币真的会让每个人都变得富有。这看起来真的很欺骗，没有任何意义。但它给真正聪明，有信誉的人说这句话。

Pieter (36:08): 彼得（36：08）：
Sorry to interrupt, but the argument for that, I think that they have is that you become owner of the project. Even if you’re not the person that’s successful, you’re in early and your part owner. Just like a stock. I think that’s actually promising because it would be interesting if I could just list Nomad List as a public company with tokens. But the SEC doesn’t allow that because that is a financial security. I do think if the SEC changes their law, that I can just list or mint Nomad List and people become an owner and I can go public with a small company. That’d be great because an IPO now, you need a hundred million revenue. I don’t have a hundred million revenue.
抱歉打断一下，但我认为他们的论点是，你成为项目的所有者。即使你不是那个成功的人，你也是早期的，你是你的部分所有者。就像股票一样。我认为这实际上是有希望的，因为如果我能把Nomad List列为一家有代币的上市公司，那将是很有趣的。但SEC不允许这样做，因为这是一种金融证券。我确实认为，如果证券交易委员会修改他们的法律，我可以列出或铸造游牧名单，人们成为所有者，我可以上市的一家小公司。这将是伟大的，因为现在的IPO，你需要一个亿的收入。我没有一亿的收入。

Courtland (36:46): 考特兰（36：46）：
So that’s the thing that I’m the most excited about, which is, I guess in a way, these tokens are allowing the average person to “invest” in different projects and stuff. You get a lot of bad things with that and you get a lot of good things with that. The sort of meme that you posted, that’s showing the VCs are taking most of the returns for these crypto projects and the retail investors are getting drips. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (37:08): 重试    错误原因
I think that is probably true. The VC there is a16z is probably the most notable one. But also, if you look at the status quo of startups, they’re isn’t even a little drip for the retail investors. If you’re the average Joe, there’s no way for you to invest in Uber or Airbnb. Only the VCs got in. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (37:27): 重试    错误原因
It’s like, is it still kind of a VC-run game? Yeah. But is it better or worse than what we had before? I think it’s better. You can get into all these things as a normal person. Then often the VCs are just buying tokens that any other person could buy. Maybe they get a few advantages or something sometimes and maybe they get a tip in some insider trading, but you could buy it too. And then an average Joe can’t become an angel investor in Silicon Valley unless they know the right people and have enough network to be an accredited invest.
这就像，它仍然是一种风险投资运行的游戏？是啊但它比我们以前的更好还是更坏？我觉得这样更好。你可以像正常人一样进入所有这些东西。通常情况下，风投只是购买任何其他人都可以购买的代币。也许他们有时会得到一些好处，也许他们会得到一些内幕交易的提示，但你也可以买。然后，一个普通的乔不能成为硅谷的天使投资人，除非他们认识合适的人，并有足够的网络成为一个合格的投资。

Courtland (37:53): 考特兰（37：53）：
It’s just like you’re never really successful. I kind of think it’s a move in the right direction. But with that you get scams and you get pump and dump and people who are like, “There’s average people investing now? I can fool them much easier than I can fool the VCs.”
就像你从来没有真正成功过。我觉得这是一个正确的方向。但是有了这个，你会得到骗局，你会得到泵和转储和人谁是喜欢，“有普通人现在投资？我骗他们比骗风投容易多了。“

Pieter (38:06): 彼得（38：06）：
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 是啊是啊是啊

Courtland (38:09): 考特兰（38：09）：
[inaudible 00:38:09]. 【听不见的声音】

Pieter (38:10): 彼得（38：10）：
Exactly. I went here, football golfing. There’s this football golf place here. And I talked to the owner and he said he invests a lot in crypto projects and stuff. I was like that’s really cool, because it’s a older guy and he puts a lot of his money from his business into crypto. I’m like, “That’s cool but I really hope that it works out for you because you’ve got to pick the right ones to… It’s kind of scary and it’s all positive. We’re all going to go to the moon and it’s all going up and stuff.” But that’s just not always how it goes. A lot of people can lose money and I know there’s a libertarian streak in the world, especially in the US of well, it’s your own responsibility. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (38:47): 重试    错误原因
And it’s like yeah, but it’s really sad to see people lose a lot of their money and… Maybe it’s because I’m Dutch, but in Holland, we grew up where you don’t want to see your neighbor go bankrupt. You want everybody to be happy and financially happy. Man, if you go look in history of the stock market in I think 1900 or 1890 or 1910, where there wasn’t a lot of regulation, a lot of regulation was created to… Also to protect investors and also in a bad way, because now you need to be accredited and you need to be rich to invest in startups and stuff. So that’s not good, but a lot of stuff is to protect people. This is political territory again. I don’t know if you need to protect people, but I do know that a lot of people can lose their life savings. How do you… What do you do with that? Sorry, you made the wrong mistake.
就像是，但看到人们失去很多钱真的很难过…也许是因为我是荷兰人，但在荷兰，我们长大的地方，你不想看到你的邻居破产。你希望每个人都快乐，经济上快乐。伙计，如果你去看看股票市场的历史，我想在1900年或1890年或1910年，那里没有太多的监管，很多监管是为了……也是为了保护投资者，而且是以一种不好的方式，因为现在你需要得到认可，你需要有钱才能投资创业公司之类的东西。所以这并不好，但很多东西是为了保护人们。这又是一个政治领域。我不知道你是否需要保护人们，但我知道很多人可能会失去他们一生的积蓄。你怎么…你用它做什么？对不起，你犯了一个错误。

Courtland (39:41): 考特兰（39：41）：
We’re all trying to figure this out. The world’s changing so fast. A year or two ago, a fraction of people were talking about this stuff that we’re talking about it now. No one knows where the future’s going to be. But there are these ideas like you were saying, universal basic income or the broader idea that appeals to me is creating a floor below which people can’t fall.
我们都在想办法。世界变化太快了。一两年前，一小部分人在谈论我们现在正在谈论的这些东西。没人知道未来会怎样但是有一些想法，就像你说的，全民基本收入或者更广泛的想法，吸引我的是创造一个人们不能掉下去的底线。

Courtland (40:00): 考特兰（40：00）：
You don’t want to see your neighbors go bankrupt. You don’t want people to be struggling to eat. Ideally, it’s a society we can keep raising that floor higher and higher and higher. I don’t know if universal basic income will be the thing, but there are things that once we create, people don’t fall… Once we invent technology, that technology exists and it spreads and we don’t tend to revert.
你不想看到你的邻居破产。你不想让人们吃不下饭吧。理想情况下，这是一个社会，我们可以不断提高这一地板更高，更高，更高。我不知道全民基本收入是否会成为现实，但有些东西一旦我们创造出来，人们就不会倒下。一旦我们发明了技术，技术就存在了，它就传播了，我们就不会再回头了。

Courtland (40:21): 考特兰（40：21）：
New technologies make the world a better place. And so if we can create a really safe floor where it’s safe for people to experiment, then I’m 100% percent cool with people placing crazy bets, trying to go as high as they can and if they lose it or whatever, at least they can’t fall that far. I hope that’s the direction society moving in, but we’re kind of getting…
新技术让世界变得更美好。所以如果我们能创造一个真正安全的地板，让人们可以安全地进行实验，那么我对人们疯狂下注，试图尽可能高，如果他们输了，至少他们不会跌那么远。我希望这是社会发展的方向，但我们有点…

Courtland (40:39): 考特兰（40：39）：
It’s not like a perfectly straight line to get there. It’s kind of jagged. We’re like, “Okay, well now anyone can invest in crypto, but the floor’s not quite there yet. So you might lose your shirt.” Do you think you’ll do any crypto stuff with Nomad List or your projects? Because if you had a token for Nomad List, a token for Remote OK, a token for Rebase, I would 100% buy some of your tokens. Partly because I just… You’re not going to IPO with any of this stuff most likely.
它不像一条完美的直线到达那里。有点参差不齐。我们就像，“好吧，现在任何人都可以投资加密货币，但地板还没有完全到位。所以你可能会失去你的衬衫。“你认为你会用Nomad List或你的项目做任何加密的事情吗？因为如果你有Nomad List的代币，Remote OK的代币，Rebase的代币，我会100%购买你的代币。部分原因是我…你不可能带着这些东西上市。

Pieter (41:00): 彼得（41：00）：
Yeah. I would buy Indie Hackers too. Absolutely. Yeah. 100%.
是啊我也想买Indie Hackers。当然了是啊百分百确定

Courtland (41:02): 考特兰（41：02）：
Right, yeah. I’ve thought about it. It would be so cool to be able to buy tokens and the projects you believe in that you know aren’t vaporware, bait and switch type pump and dump schemes.
是的，没错。我已经考虑过了。如果能够购买代币和你所相信的项目，你知道这些项目不是雾件，诱饵和开关类型的泵和转储计划，那将是非常酷的。

Pieter (41:13): 彼得（41：13）：
I think the regulation has to change with the SEC allowing for tokens to have actual ownership of companies and projects, because right now they don’t allow it. And the only thing you get is voting rights usually. Voting rights is not real ownership. I know they do that because otherwise, it becomes a financial security and they go to jail.
我认为监管必须改变，美国证券交易委员会允许代币拥有公司和项目的实际所有权，因为现在他们不允许这样做。通常你唯一能得到的就是投票权。投票权不是真实的所有权。我知道他们这样做，因为否则，它成为一个金融安全，他们去坐牢。

Pieter (41:29): 彼得（41：29）：
But the SEC needs to change that. And then following that the European Union, whatever financial authority they have, they do need to do the same thing and the same thing in Asia and whatever. Because then you can have really nice, actual ownership tokens with voting power also. I can give dividends. I’d love to give dividends as a company to the owners of the company. Why not? And that would be super cool. I think we’re going to get there within five years. I think it’s going to happen. That would validate the whole Web3 scene almost overnight, I think. Because it would not be bullshit. It would be real ownership and until then, if that doesn’t happen, we don’t know what all these tokens mean. They don’t mean anything right now.
但SEC需要改变这一点。接下来是欧盟，无论他们拥有什么样的金融权力，他们都需要做同样的事情，在亚洲和其他地方做同样的事情。因为这样你就可以拥有非常好的，实际拥有权的代币，也有投票权。我可以给给予。我很乐意给予股息作为一个公司的所有者。为什么不呢？那就太酷了我认为我们将在五年内实现这一目标。我觉得会发生的。我认为，这几乎会在一夜之间验证整个Web3场景。因为这不是废话。这将是真实的所有权，在此之前，如果没有发生，我们不知道所有这些代币意味着什么。它们现在没有任何意义。

Courtland (42:10): 考特兰（42：10）：
Not ownership, for sure. 不是所有权，当然。

Pieter (42:12): 彼得（42：12）：
Yeah. 是啊

Courtland (42:12):
Yeah. I’ve done some token investing where it’s an interesting question because if I look at the things that I bought, I don’t know if I cared about ownership. It would be nice to have ownership. If I bought stock, technically that gives me some rights and stuff. But a lot of the other things exist. You can give dividends to people who own your token. 重试    错误原因

Courtland (42:31): 重试    错误原因
I got an airdrop because I owned the ENS token and they paid everyone who owned any of their domain names literally $15-20,000, which is nuts. There’s a lot of projects that are going to do that. You get voting rights, you can sort of delegate your voting rights to others. And so I guess my question for you is how important is the ownership? If people can essentially profit when your company increases in value, if they can sell the tokens, if they can get voting rights, if they can get distribution and dividends, why do they need the ownership rights? 重试    错误原因

Pieter (43:06): 重试    错误原因
Man, yeah. That’s a good question. I was a week too late with ENS registering. I did not get the airdrop by the way, so I didn’t get the token. But who cares? But the thing with… If you say you get dividends from an airdrop, I assume that means you get tokens from the same project, which people are trading on. So they have value from trading on them, which is different than giving dividends from the money I make from customers that I then give to you as a owner.
是啊问得好我晚了一周才注册ENS。我没有收到空投，所以我没有收到代币。但谁在乎呢？但是…如果你说你从空投中获得股息，我假设这意味着你从同一个项目中获得代币，人们正在交易这些代币。因此，它们从交易中获得价值，这与我从客户那里赚取的钱中获得股息不同，然后我给予给你作为所有者。

Courtland (43:35): 考特兰（43：35）：
That’s true. They could do that, but you’re right. That’s not what they did.
那倒是他们可以这么做但你说得对他们不是这么做的。

Pieter (43:39): 彼得（43：39）：
You want to have some kind of intrinsic value in the core where it comes down to. So you have a lot of tech companies Amazon, they don’t even give dividends, I think, they don’t even make profit. They just reinvest. Because there’s a hope in the future they might issue dividends when they are big enough or something.
你想在核心中有某种内在价值。所以你有很多科技公司亚马逊，他们甚至不给给予股息，我想，他们甚至不盈利。他们只是再投资。因为未来有希望，当他们足够大的时候，他们可能会发行股息。

Pieter (43:55): 彼得（43：55）：
That’s priced into the price. That’s part of the deal kind of. You still own the company, but they’re not… It’s the same as not owning it, but having a token, but at least there’s some kind of… As a stockholder, you can also vote. You can say, “Okay, we want now Amazon to start giving dividends?” How do you do that with a project that doesn’t really give dividends. You can issue more tokens, but issuing tokens about what? What’s the value? The only value is some kind of concept.
这是价格中的价格。这是交易的一部分。你仍然拥有公司，但他们不是…这就像没有拥有它，但有一个令牌，但至少有某种.作为股东，你也可以投票。你可以说，“好吧，我们希望亚马逊现在开始分红？“你如何做到这一点与一个项目，并没有真正给予给予股息。你可以发行更多的代币，但发行代币是为了什么？值多少钱？唯一的价值是某种概念。

Courtland (44:23): 考特兰（44：23）：
It’s just trading it. 只是交换而已。

Pieter (44:23): 彼得（44：23）：
Right? Some kind of, “Yeah, this is going to be big.” You cannot live forever on, “This is going to be big.” You need to have some… You know what I mean? There needs to be-
对不对？某种，“是的，这将是一个大的。“你不可能永远活下去”，这会很轰动.“你需要一些…你懂我的意思吗？必须有-

Courtland (44:33): 考特兰（44：33）：
True. Eventually, the growth stops and…
真的最后，生长停止了…

Pieter (44:35): 彼得（44：35）：
Yeah. Otherwise, if it’s not, it’s MLM. We know a lot of MLM schemes in America like Amway, all that stuff, allegedly, I should say legally, because I don’t want to be sued, but you don’t want it to be that.
是啊否则，如果不是，那就是传销。我们知道在美国有很多传销计划，比如安利，所有这些东西，据称，我应该说是合法的，因为我不想被起诉，但你不想这样。

Pieter (44:49): 彼得（44：49）：
I think it would really legitimize this whole thing if it became real ownership for me and maybe it’s because I studied business also we had finance. So I know a little bit about all this options and stocks work and stuff and… There was this new law in America that let you crowd fund stocks. There was the safe [crosstalk 00:45:09] or something.
我认为如果它成为我真正的所有权，这将真正使整个事情合法化，也许这是因为我学的是商业，我们也学过金融。所以我对期权和股票之类的东西略知一二…美国有一条新法律允许你投资股票。有保险箱[crosstalk 00：45：09]或其他东西。

Courtland (45:09): 考特兰（45：09）：
Yeah. They raised they raised the limit on how much you can crowdfund basically to [inaudible 00:45:14] investors. I think [inaudible 00:45:16] did it with Gumroad and got a ton of people.
是啊他们提高了他们提高了你基本上可以向投资者众筹多少钱的限制。我想[听不清00：45：16]和Gumroad一起做了，得到了一吨的人。

Pieter (45:19): 彼得（45：19）：
Yeah. So it’s already getting closer. I think we’re almost there and it’s unfair that if you don’t make a hundred million a year, 50 million a year, you cannot IPO. It’s like why can’t I IPO? I don’t want to sell my company to some person.
是啊所以它已经越来越近了。我认为我们几乎就在那里了，如果你一年赚不到1亿美元，一年赚不到5000万美元，你就不能IPO，这是不公平的。为什么我不能IPO？我不想把公司卖给别人。

Pieter (45:34): 彼得（45：34）：
It would be much more fun to sell to the people who use it and then they can vote and they can tell me to hire people and it can be a board of directors and stuff. That would be super cool.
把它卖给使用它的人会有趣得多，然后他们可以投票，他们可以告诉我去雇人，它可以是一个董事会之类的东西。那就太酷了

Courtland (45:45): 考特兰（45：45）：
There’s another thing you can do with these tokens that you can’t really do with stock, which is you can use them as kind of currency. Let’s say you have a Nomad coin or something, you could do job listings that people buy them with the coin. Or if you own the coin, you can get access to the community forum or something.
你可以用这些代币做另一件事，这是你不能用股票做的，那就是你可以把它们当作一种货币。假设你有一个Nomad硬币或其他东西，你可以做人们用硬币购买的工作列表。或者，如果你拥有硬币，你可以访问社区论坛或其他东西。

Courtland (46:03): 考特兰（46：03）：
There’s little sort of things you can do that give the coin intrinsic value beyond just speculating on it. It’s interesting. It’s a very wild west type thing. I’m not very optimistic that we’re going to see the SEC. No one knows. I’m not very optimistic that it’s going to be like, “Okay, you guys. Here’s our official stamp of approval. Go for it.” It’ll legitimize things [inaudible 00:46:26]. I feel they have no idea what to do.
除了推测之外，你还可以做一些事情来给予硬币内在的价值，这很有趣。这是一个非常狂野的西部类型的东西。我不太乐观，我们会看到证券交易委员会。没人知道我不太乐观，它会像，“好吧，你们。这是我们的官方批准章去了.“这将使事情合法化。我觉得他们不知道该怎么办。

Pieter (46:28): 彼得（46：28）：
They’ve been pretty mild on crypto. They’ve been pretty embracing though, the last few years. And they’re leading. If they do something, the rest of the world follows. It’s the US. I think they really have the power to change things. You know this better. I’m not American, but it’d be very interesting if to do that. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (46:46): 彼得（46：46）：
The social tokens thing, I think it’s interesting because I run a community. I run the biggest remote worker community kind of on Slack and on the internet. If the token of a membership, the price is dictated by the market, these friends with benefits, I think of FWB social token I saw. So the token becomes a $1,000. So now it’s become an exclusive community which is kind of good in a way, but also kind of not my thing, because with Nomad List, it’s usually 80 or 90 or a $100 lifetime fee and people… 重试    错误原因

Pieter (47:20): 重试    错误原因
It means that every month, there’s 500 new Nomads that come in and they… It’s kind of a nice churn vibe where it’s a cafe, new people come in, there’s some old people still, new people. It gives a community this fuel of refreshment and communities that don’t do that, they kind of die out. I feel they get stale or they become too exclusive and I can see it. If I raise the price too high, I would get a 100 sign ups a month and the community would start dying. People would be like, “Why is the chat so empty?” Price should be dictated by the market for a community.
这意味着每个月，有500个新的游牧民族进来，他们…这是一种很好的搅动氛围，那里是一个咖啡馆，新的人进来，有一些老人仍然，新的人。它为社区提供了这种提神的燃料，而那些不这样做的社区，他们就会消亡。我觉得他们变得陈旧或他们变得太排外，我可以看到它。如果我把价格提高太高，我会得到一个100注册一个月，社区将开始死亡。人们会说，“为什么聊天室这么空？“价格应该由市场决定。

Courtland (47:59): 考特兰（47：59）：
I agree. I thought about doing this for Indie Hackers. I don’t think I will. Just because it’s because Indie Hackers is part of Stripe, you immediately have to go to Stripe’s legal team. It’ll be just a whole much bigger than just me as an individual. But I was thinking about the same problem too because it’s like I don’t the idea of creating a really small, exclusive community that’s really hard to get into and whatever.
我同意.我想为独立黑客做这件事。我不认为我会。仅仅因为这是因为独立黑客是Stripe的一部分，你必须立即去Stripe的法律的团队。它将成为一个整体，而不仅仅是我作为一个个体。但我也在思考同样的问题，因为我不想创建一个非常小的，排他性的社区，很难进入。

Courtland (48:20): 考特兰（48：20）：
So it’s like okay, well if it costs a certain amount of tokens to get access to the community, you could potentially lower that over time as the token price increases. They’re like okay, joining is always the same price. But if you’ve invested in the token earlier, you still make money.
所以这就像好吧，如果它需要一定数量的代币来访问社区，随着时间的推移，随着代币价格的上涨，你可能会降低它。他们说好吧加入都是一样的价钱但如果你早些时候投资了代币，你仍然赚钱。

Courtland (48:35): 考特兰（48：35）：
That token can still appreciate, but it’s valuable for other reasons rather than just access. I don’t know. I think there’s a lot of experimentation. I hope you do something because I want to… The thing I the most about Web3 and these tokens is I want to see all these different creators who are building their stuff. I want to be able to invest in them. And right now it’s impossible for me to invest in them because they’re not a $100 million companies. I hope Web3 goes in that direction.
这种代币仍然可以升值，但它的价值是出于其他原因，而不仅仅是访问。我不知道我认为有很多实验。我希望你做点什么因为我想…我对Web3和这些代币最感兴趣的是，我想看到所有这些不同的创造者正在构建他们的东西。我希望能够投资他们。现在我不可能投资他们，因为他们不是1亿美元的公司。我希望Web3能朝这个方向发展。

Pieter (48:58): 彼得（48：58）：
Dude, I think that’s the, what do you call it? Killer app, one of the killer apps. I really believe in Bitcoin. I have a lot of Bitcoin and I think it’s… I think I’m starting to pay my contracts with Bitcoin soon because the trouble.
伙计，我想那是，你怎么说来着？杀手级应用，杀手级应用之一。我真的相信比特币。我有很多比特币，我觉得…我想我很快就会开始用比特币支付我的合同，因为麻烦。

Pieter (49:15): 彼得（49：15）：
So I work with a contractor who does customer support and she’s Filipino. When I hired her as a contractor, she was living in Vietnam and then she moved to Morocco now. And then when I tried to pay her, I was in Hollands, I think… Or no, I was in Portugal. I was a Dutch person in Portugal paying a Filipino worker in Vietnam with a Singapore company. These were five entities and I tried to do all these…
所以我和一个做客户支持的承包商一起工作，她是菲律宾人。当我雇她做承包商的时候，她住在越南然后她现在搬到了摩洛哥。当我想付钱给她的时候，我在荷兰，我想…不，我在葡萄牙。我是一个在葡萄牙的荷兰人，用一家新加坡公司支付一名在越南的菲律宾工人的工资。这是五个实体，我试着做所有这些…

Pieter (49:45): 彼得（49：45）：
I tried TransferWise and Payoneer stuff and they were like… I had to talk the customer support because they’re like, “Why is your house in Portugal, but you are Dutch? And your company is in Singapore and your contractor is Philippina in Vietnam. This all doesn’t add up.” All red reflects. And then we could do this with Bitcoin, with the Lightning Network within half a second with almost no fees now.
我试过TransferWise和Payoneer的东西，他们就像…我不得不和客户支持部门谈谈，因为他们会说，“为什么你的房子在葡萄牙，而你是荷兰人？你的公司在新加坡，你的承包商是越南的菲律宾。这一切都说不通”所有的红色反映。然后我们可以用比特币做这件事，用闪电网络在半秒内完成，现在几乎没有费用。

Pieter (50:09): 彼得（50：09）：
Bitcoin has become cheap and fast. This completely solves it. We need to remember, we are like Europe and America, but most of the world is not Europe and America and their finance, their money system doesn’t work like ours and it’s not easy at all. It’s very difficult to pay people in the rest of the world. Asia, Africa, Latin America. 重试    错误原因

Pieter (50:29): 彼得（50：29）：
I think Bitcoin might help with that a lot.
我认为比特币可能会对此有很大帮助。

Courtland (50:33): 考特兰（50：33）：
For sure. Yeah. Well, listen, dude, thanks so much for coming on. Do you want to let listeners know where to go to, I guess, follow you if they don’t already follow you and see what you’re up to?
当然了是啊好吧，听着，伙计，非常感谢你的到来。你想让听众知道去哪里，我想，如果他们还没有跟随你，看看你在做什么，就跟随你吗？

Pieter (50:42): 彼得（50：42）：
Yeah. So I’m on Twitter mostly. It’s @levelsio, which is L-E-V-E-L-S-I-O. From there you can see on my websites in my bio and see my crazy stupid tweets every day where I-
是啊所以我基本上都在推特上。是@levelsio，也就是L-E-V-E-L-S-I-O。从那里你可以在我的网站上看到我的个人简历，每天看到我疯狂愚蠢的推文，我-

Courtland (50:55): 考特兰（50：55）：
See the progress bar of how close you are to $5 million a year.
查看进度条，了解您距离每年500万美元有多近。

Pieter (50:59): 彼得（50：59）：
Yes. 是的

Courtland (51:00): 考特兰（51：00）：
Cool. 酷了

Pieter (51:01): 彼得（51：01）：
Thank you, man. Thanks so much for having me.
谢谢你，伙计，非常感谢你邀请我

P.S. I’m on Twitter too if you’d like to follow more of my stories. And I wrote a book called MAKE about building startups without funding. See a list of my stories or contact me. To get an alert when I write a new blog post, you can subscribe below:
P.S.我也在Twitter上，如果你想关注我的更多故事。我写了一本书叫MAKE，是关于在没有资金的情况下建立初创公司的。查看我的故事列表或联系我。要在我写新博客文章时获得提醒，您可以在下面订阅：