自助，搬到葡萄牙并建立Rebase（Wannabe Entrepreneur Podcast） --- Bootstrapping, moving to Portugal and setting up Rebase (Wannabe Entrepreneur Podcast)

Tiago from Wannabe Entrepreneur interviewed about the origins of my bootstrapping and moving to Portugal (as he’s Portuguese) and starting Rebase.
来自Wannabe Entrepreneur的Tiago采访了我的白手起家和搬到葡萄牙的起源（因为他是葡萄牙人）并开始Rebase。

Tiago (00:00:00): 蒂亚戈（00：00：00）：
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Wannabe Entrepreneur, the podcast about what’s really like to bootstrap a company. And today I have a new person in the business, a newbie in bootstrapping. His name is Pieter Levels. What’s up Pieter? Everything good with you?
大家好，欢迎来到另一集《想成为企业家》，这是一个关于如何真正引导一家公司的播客。今天我有一个新的人在业务，一个新手在自助。他叫彼得·莱维怎么了，彼得？你还好吗？

Pieter Levels (00:00:17):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
What’s up, man? Thank you for having me.
你好吗，伙计？谢谢你邀请我。

Tiago (00:00:19): 蒂亚戈：
Thank you for taking the time. I think, obviously, everyone that is listening to this knows Pieter, is kind of the person that started bootstrapping. We’re just chatting about it off the record and he just said that now bootstrapping is kind of mainstream and everyone speaks about it, but when he first started, everyone was more into VC and startups and shark tank. And not a lot of people were actually speaking about bootstrapping. So, is the creator of Nomad List, Remote OK, Rebase.co, and I guess another thousand cool projects. And super excited to have a chat with you. And I guess we can speak a little bit about Rebase, about Portugal, about bootstrapping. I have a lot of questions. So super excited.
谢谢你抽时间过来我想，很明显，每个听这个的人都知道彼得，是那种开始自力更生的人。我们只是私下聊了一下，他只是说现在自助是一种主流，每个人都在谈论它，但当他刚开始的时候，每个人都更喜欢VC和初创公司和鲨鱼坦克。实际上并没有多少人在谈论自力更生。所以，是游牧名单的创造者，远程OK，Rebase.co，我猜还有一千个很酷的项目。很高兴能和你聊天。我想我们可以谈谈Rebase，关于葡萄牙，关于自助。我有很多问题。太兴奋了。

Pieter Levels (00:01:09):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Me too. 我也是

Tiago (00:01:10): 蒂亚戈：
I always ask this to the people I’m interviewing, to introduce themselves in their own words. If you don’t mind, would you do that?
我总是这样问我面试的人，用他们自己的话介绍自己。如果你不介意的话，你会这么做吗？

Pieter Levels (00:01:20):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Yeah, sure. So my name is Pieter Levels. I’m originally from Holland, Amsterdam, I wasn’t born there, but I lived there a lot and everybody knows Amsterdam. So it’s easy place to say.
好的当然我的名字叫皮特·莱维。我来自荷兰，阿姆斯特丹，我不是在那里出生的，但我在那里生活了很长时间，每个人都知道阿姆斯特丹。所以说起来容易。

Tiago (00:01:33): 蒂亚戈：
I love the city, man. It’s such a cool city.
我爱这座城市，伙计。这是个很酷的城市。

Pieter Levels (00:01:35):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It’s beautiful, man. Especially in the summer. It’s amazing. And so, I make startups, but not really billion dollar startups, but I mean, million dollar startups is good and they’re indie, so I don’t really raise funding for them, I just make it myself. I write code, I design, I make the logo, I do the marketing. I do pretty much everything. I make the database, I make the code and I made a lot of projects, over 70 projects, and a few became successful, like Nomad List and Remote OK, and recently, like you said, Rebase. And most of my projects now are about remote work. And it’s my mission, is to promote the freedom of global movement that’s enabled by remote work. And that’s what I live for. That’s what I want to do. And that’s what I did for the last, almost eight years now, I think.
很美，伙计。尤其是在夏天。太神奇了所以，我做创业公司，但不是真正的十亿美元的创业公司，但我的意思是，百万美元的创业公司是好的，他们是独立的，所以我不真的为他们筹集资金，我只是自己做。我写代码，我设计，我做标志，我做营销。我几乎什么都做。我做数据库，我做代码，我做了很多项目，超过70个项目，有几个成功了，像Nomad List和Remote OK，最近，就像你说的，Rebase。我现在的大部分项目都是关于远程工作的。这是我的使命，是促进全球行动的自由，这是由远程工作实现的。这就是我的生活这就是我想做的这就是我在过去八年里所做的，我想。

Tiago (00:02:41): 蒂亚戈：
Why this motto? Why having this mission of allowing everyone to travel freely?
为什么是这个座右铭？为什么有这个使命允许每个人自由旅行？

Pieter Levels (00:02:47):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I think it’s something that… When I grew up, I didn’t actually travel around the whole world. The first time I really went outside Europe was in 2009. I studied business administration in Amsterdam and they had a program, an exchange program, many people do it these days. And I went to Korea and I studied in Seoul, at Korea University. That’s the name of the university. And it was life changing. I was like, “Wow, I’m on the other side of the world.” And like everybody I think, I was scared of outside Europe and traveling and stuff and moving abroad, it was really scary. I was like, “What was going to happen? Is it safe and stuff?”
我觉得这是…当我长大的时候，我并没有环游世界。我第一次真正离开欧洲是在2009年。我在阿姆斯特丹学习工商管理，他们有一个项目，一个交换项目，现在很多人都这样做。我去了韩国，在首尔的高丽大学学习。那是大学的名字它改变了我的生活。我当时想，“哇，我在世界的另一边。“就像我想的每个人一样，我害怕离开欧洲，旅行，搬到国外，这真的很可怕。我当时想“会发生什么呢安全吗？“

Tiago (00:03:34): 蒂亚戈：
Especially to a different continent, right?
尤其是在另一个大陆，对吧？

Pieter Levels (00:03:36):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Dude, a hundred percent. And it was so strange. It was such a culture shock arriving. We flew there with two Dutch classmates who were [foreign language 00:03:47], and still best friends, and we arrived there at the airport, and flying is already interesting, but then arriving in a place in the middle of the night, taking the bus. And we had no idea about how to get to our hotel, or our hostel I think it was even, at a shared six people dorm. And we were just in a random neighborhood in Seoul, and with neon lights everywhere. You know Asia, all these neon lights, just like in Japan.
伙计，百分之百。感觉很奇怪。这是一种文化冲击的到来。我们和两个荷兰同学一起飞到那里，他们是[外语00：03：47]，仍然是最好的朋友，我们在机场到达那里，飞行已经很有趣了，但是在半夜到达一个地方，乘坐公共汽车。我们不知道如何到达我们的酒店，或者我们的旅馆，我想它甚至是，在一个共享的六人宿舍。我们只是在首尔的一个随机的社区，到处都是氖灯。你知道亚洲，所有这些氖灯，就像在日本。

Pieter Levels (00:04:17):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
And we were so hungry and there was only this street food. So we eat these rice cakes in red sauce and it was super spicy and we almost threw up because it was just burning our throats so much. And then we ended up in some bar called the Sam bar, because Sam means tree. And we started drinking and asking them if they could help us find our way to our home. And they did. So we drank a lot there. And then we ended up in our hostel that night. And I don’t know, that first night was already like, “This is so crazy.” Other side of the world, so much adventures and stuff. And that expanded my whole view on the world. And everybody was really nice. Everybody was so nice to outsiders.
我们都饿坏了只有街边小吃。所以我们吃了这些红酱料年糕，它是超级辣，我们几乎吐了，因为它只是燃烧我们的喉咙这么多。后来我们去了一家叫山姆的酒吧，因为山姆的意思是树。我们开始喝酒，问他们是否能帮我们找到回家的路。他们确实这么做了。我们在那里喝了很多。然后我们结束了我们的宿舍那天晚上。我不知道，第一个晚上就已经像，“这太疯狂了。“世界的另一边，有这么多的冒险和东西。这扩展了我对世界的整个看法。所有人都很好。每个人都对外人很好。

Tiago (00:05:05): 蒂亚戈：
Europe is interesting because it’s somehow its own country, a big country, because the culture is similar, right?
欧洲很有趣，因为它是自己的国家，一个大国，因为文化相似，对吧？

Pieter Levels (00:05:12):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
For sure. 当然了

Tiago (00:05:13): 蒂亚戈：
But the moment you go, for instance, to Asia, and my only experience in India was actually in India, because when I moved to Germany, I’m from Portugal, working in Germany for six years. I met a lot of people from India and I met people from all over the world. So this was really nice, to get to know other cultures, but Asia and India, it’s such a different way of living. So different that you either love it or you hate it. And I was super addictive. And I just want to go back because this was so interesting.
但是当你去亚洲的时候，我在印度的唯一经历实际上是在印度，因为当我搬到德国的时候，我来自葡萄牙，在德国工作了六年。我遇到了很多来自印度的人，也遇到了来自世界各地的人。所以这真的很好，去了解其他的文化，但是亚洲和印度，这是一种完全不同的生活方式。如此不同，你要么喜欢它，要么讨厌它。我超级上瘾。我只想回去，因为这太有趣了。

Pieter Levels (00:05:47):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Totally man. It’s also relative. If you grow up in Asia, then you have the same vibe that we have about Asia, as with Europe. A lot of people here are dreaming about Europe and they’re obsessed about Europe. And I think it’s kind of similar thing. It’s just like, you grew up in a culture and then you go to another culture and it’s just like… It’s so exhilarating, because everything is different and you learn so much and also, you’re forced to go outside and talk to people just to survive, cause you need to eat, you need to somehow order food or buy food and it forced you out of your comfort zone.
完全是男人。也是相对的。如果你在亚洲长大，那么你对亚洲的感觉和我们对欧洲的感觉一样。这里的很多人都梦想着欧洲，他们对欧洲着迷。我认为这是类似的事情。就像，你在一种文化中长大，然后你去另一种文化，就像…这是如此令人兴奋，因为一切都是不同的，你学到了很多，而且，你被迫走出去，与人交谈只是为了生存，因为你需要吃，你需要以某种方式订购食物或购买食物，它迫使你走出你的舒适区。

Tiago (00:06:32): 蒂亚戈：
Are you the kind of person that likes to fit in or to bring your culture? I feel that when you’re traveling, there’s two kinds of people. People that love to be tourists and they say… We have this a lot in Portugal, by the way. And sometimes with my family this happened, I’m traveling with my family and we are in a beautiful beach and it’s like, “Yeah, we also have this in Portugal.” Try to bring the culture there. And then there’s other people, like me, that are like, “I don’t want anyone to know that I’m a tourist and I want to just fit in and to learn from them.” Which kind of person are you?
你是那种喜欢融入或带来你的文化的人吗？我觉得当你旅行的时候，有两种人。喜欢旅游的人说…顺便说一句，我们在葡萄牙有很多这样的事情。有时候我和家人也会这样，我和家人一起旅行，我们在一个美丽的海滩，就像，“是的，我们在葡萄牙也有这个。“把文化带到这里来。还有其他人，像我一样，就像，“我不想让任何人知道我是一个游客，我只想融入并向他们学习。“你是什么人？

Pieter Levels (00:07:04):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, it’s difficult to not look like tourist because I’m blonde and white, and that’s not people in Asia. But I think it’s important that you try to match the culture, local culture level. For example, in Asia you need to be much more polite and you need to be friendly and talk softer because the closer you get to the United States of America, the higher the decibel of voice. Everywhere you go you hear Americans, always, like, “Louder! Louder!” It’s just so loud. And then Europe is somewhere in the middle, and then Asia just speaks soft. So you need to match the culture and you need to be respectful. And then, of course you bring your own culture, because that’s you. And it’s always a mix of…
很难不看起来像游客因为我是金发和白色，这不是亚洲人。但我认为重要的是你要努力适应当地的文化。例如，在亚洲，你需要更有礼貌，你需要更友好，说话更柔和，因为你离美国越近，声音的分贝就越高。无论你走到哪里，你都能听到美国人，总是这样，“大声点！大声点“只是太吵了。然后欧洲在中间的某个地方，然后亚洲只是说话柔和。所以你需要与文化相匹配，你需要尊重。然后，当然你带来了你自己的文化，因为那就是你。总是混合着…

Pieter Levels (00:07:56):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
With COVID is very different, because it’s hard to now meet people. But before COVID, it’s a mix of generally you hang with locals and you hang with other foreigners in a place, and there’s exceptions to that. But there’s also, places like Korea don’t have a lot of foreigners living there, so you hang more with locals. Places like Bali, Canggu, that’s definitely a resort town. So it’s mostly foreigners living there and the restaurants are ran by locals and it’s good. The money flows to locals. It’s probably harder to hang with locals there because it’s more of a resort town. It’s always a mix and everybody should do what they want to do. And if you want to be a tourist, that’s fine too.
与COVID是非常不同的，因为现在很难满足人们。但在新冠肺炎之前，这是一个混合体，通常你和当地人在一起，你和其他外国人在一个地方，也有例外。但也有，像韩国这样的地方没有很多外国人住在那里，所以你更多地与当地人相处。像巴厘岛、仓古这样的地方，绝对是一个度假胜地。所以住在那里的大多是外国人，餐馆也是当地人开的，很不错。资金流向当地人。在那里可能很难和当地人相处，因为它更像是一个度假胜地。这总是一个组合，每个人都应该做他们想做的事情。如果你想成为一名游客，那也很好。

Tiago (00:08:46): 蒂亚戈：
When you go back and visit your friends back home, people that didn’t travel, did you feel like that there is a difference in perspectives? Can you still identify with your friends back home?
当你回去看望你的朋友回家，人们没有旅行，你觉得有一个不同的观点？你还能认同你家乡的朋友吗？

Pieter Levels (00:09:00):
Pieter Levels（00：09：00）：
A hundred percent. Honestly, the friends I had when I graduated are very different than the friends I have now. When I graduated university and then started traveling and living abroad, are very different and I still love those old friends. I don’t talk to them a lot. I talk to the friends that went the same way as me. Also went traveling and remote work. I’d love to have a more diverse friend group, but it is difficult, because you change when you go abroad and people that stay in their own country also change. And people become more set in their ways.
百分之百。老实说，我毕业时的朋友和我现在的朋友很不一样。当我大学毕业，然后开始旅行和生活在国外，是非常不同的，我仍然爱那些老朋友。我不常和他们说话。我和那些和我同路的朋友聊天。也去旅行和远程工作。我希望有一个更多样化的朋友群，但这很难，因为你出国后会改变，而留在自己国家的人也会改变。人们的行为方式变得更加固定。

Tiago (00:09:47): 蒂亚戈：
It’s funny to see that normally… This is my experience as an expat. The first one or two years, it seems that every time you go back home, nothing changed and you changed so much. But then after three, four years, I started noticing this. It seems that they moved on, they have their life. And then I feel, and it’s an interesting thing now that I returned, because I have a lot of friends that I met as an expat and I really identify myself with them. And now I’m back, and my friends here, it’s hard to reconnect even though I like them, but-
很有趣的是，通常情况下…这是我作为一名外籍人士的经历。最初的一两年，似乎每次你回家，什么都没有改变，你改变了很多。但三四年后，我开始注意到这一点。似乎他们已经离开了，他们有自己的生活。然后我觉得，这是一个有趣的事情，现在我回来了，因为我有很多朋友，我遇到了作为一个外籍人士，我真的认同自己与他们。现在我回来了，我的朋友在这里，很难重新连接，即使我喜欢他们，但是-

Pieter Levels (00:10:24):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, it really sucks because you had a lot of shared history and there’s nothing negative about them. There’s also nothing negative about us. And I think it’s natural that the people in your life changed throughout your life, and it’s not a bad thing. It’s a real challenge to have a very diverse friend group. And honestly, I think the people that go abroad the first time in [inaudible 00:10:48] and stuff, the first two or three years, they’re insufferable, that’s the word. They cannot stop talking about, “Oh my God, everything’s amazing abroad. And oh my God, I went to Asia, and I went to Latin America and blah, blah, blah.” So that’s really annoying for people that stay at home. But then it’s also annoying because I do think nomads and people abroad they get over it and they’re like, “Okay, it’s not better or worse. Just different.”
不，这真的很糟糕，因为你有很多共同的历史，没有什么负面的。我们也没有什么不好的地方。我认为你生活中的人在你的一生中发生变化是很自然的，这不是一件坏事。拥有一个非常多样化的朋友群是一个真实的挑战。老实说，我认为那些第一次出国的人，头两三年，他们令人难以忍受，这就是这个词。他们不停地说，“哦，我的上帝，国外的一切都很棒。哦，天哪，我去了亚洲，我去了拉丁美洲，等等。“所以这对呆在家里的人来说真的很烦人。但这也很烦人，因为我确实认为游牧民族和国外的人会克服它，他们会说，“好吧，这没有更好或更坏。只是不一样。“

Tiago (00:11:14): 蒂亚戈：
It’s a different lifestyle.
这是一种不同的生活方式。

Pieter Levels (00:11:16):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
But I do feel like maybe the people that stay at home, they do get threatened by, if you make a different life choice than them, because they want to have a cognitive confirmation that they made the right choice. Because if they made the wrong choice for them… If things work out for you abroad and they think they also could have done it, then maybe they made the wrong choice.
但我确实觉得，如果你做出了与他们不同的生活选择，呆在家里的人可能会受到威胁，因为他们希望有一个认知确认，他们做出了正确的选择。因为如果他们做出了错误的选择…如果你在国外的事情顺利，他们认为他们也可以做到这一点，那么也许他们做出了错误的选择。

Tiago (00:11:44): 蒂亚戈：
Easing out. 放松

Pieter Levels (00:11:46):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So then, the easy way is to attack it. And that’s what I do. Especially, I would say 2014, 2015, I had a lot where I would talk to people in Amsterdam at home when I was flying back and they were like, “Pieter, this doesn’t work. You cannot do this. People need community. You need roots. You need to be in one place and remote work doesn’t work. You need an office. You need people, colleagues and stuff,” and all this stuff. And I was like, “Yeah, but also…” All my friends were doing it differently and it’s going well, we’re working remotely or we’re building companies. It wasn’t going extremely well, but we were making our own money from it and it was going okay. And then, now with COVID, everything changed. Because remote work is mainstream. Airbnb CEO, Brian Chesky, just tweeted, “We’re all going to become digital nomads.” And suddenly it’s mainstream. And there’s a certain vengeance aspect to that, “Look, I was right.” But also there’s the realization, I think that you should be open for different ideas, but you shouldn’t think that your lifestyle is better or their lifestyle’s worse. I think it’s good to respect everybody’s lifestyle and I guess learn about it.
所以，最简单的方法就是攻击它。这就是我所做的。特别是，我会说2014年，2015年，当我飞回来的时候，我在阿姆斯特丹的家里和人们交谈了很多次，他们说，“彼得，这不起作用。你不能这么做人们需要社区。你需要根。你需要在一个地方，远程工作是行不通的。你需要一间办公室。你需要人，同事和其他东西，”等等。我说“是啊但也…“我所有的朋友都在做不同的事情，而且进展顺利，我们正在远程工作，或者我们正在建立公司。这不是非常顺利，但我们从中赚了自己的钱，一切都很好。然后，现在有了COVID，一切都改变了。因为远程工作是主流。Airbnb首席执行官Brian Chesky在推特上说：“我们都将成为数字游牧民。“突然，它成为主流。这是一种复仇的方式，“看，我是对的。“但也有实现，我认为你应该开放不同的想法，但你不应该认为你的生活方式更好或他们的生活方式更差。我认为尊重每个人的生活方式是件好事，我想我应该了解一下。

Tiago (00:13:10): 蒂亚戈：
What did your family say when you started this life of living the digital nomad? First of all, did they want you to be an full-time entrepreneur? Or were they worried that “Okay, why don’t you just get a job and get on with it?”
当你开始过数字游牧生活时，你的家人怎么说？首先，他们希望你成为一名全职企业家吗？或者他们担心“好吧，你为什么不找份工作继续干呢？“

Pieter Levels (00:13:25):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Dude, my parents are amazing. My mom and dad are… Now I realize more and more, they’re really amazing because the only thing they always said was, “Beat as long as you’re happy.” And I guess also don’t hurt other people that were happy for you. Just do whatever makes you happy. And they never told me what to do.
伙计，我父母太棒了。我爸妈…现在我越来越意识到，他们真的很神奇，因为他们总是说的唯一一件事是，“只要你高兴，就打。“我想也不要伤害其他为你高兴的人。做任何让你开心的事。他们从来没有告诉我该怎么做。

Tiago (00:13:47): 蒂亚戈：
Are they also entrepreneurs?
他们也是企业家吗？

Pieter Levels (00:13:49):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No. My dad’s a doctor and my mom is a lawyer, but she didn’t really work. She just raise kids. My dad always wanted to become a filmer. They grew up really poor, and this was after the war in world war II. So he was born just after that, 1948. And the city he was in, Rotterdam, was completely flat bombed by the Germans, was gone and the whole country was in ruins after the war and everybody was poor. So my grandmother told my dad… My dad was like, “I want to go to film school. I want to become a film director.” And my grandmother was like, “No, you’re not going to become film director. You’re going to become a doctor.” So, I think you see this a lot with families in Asia, also where the parents tell you, “You need to become doctor, lawyer or something.”
不。我爸爸是医生，妈妈是律师，但她不怎么工作。她只是抚养孩子。我父亲一直想成为一名摄影师。他们在贫穷中长大，那是在二战之后。他就在那之后出生，1948年。他所在的城市，鹿特丹，被德国人彻底夷为平地，整个国家在战后都成了一片废墟，每个人都很穷。所以我奶奶告诉我爸爸…我爸爸说，“我想去电影学校。我想成为一名电影导演。我祖母说：“不，你不会成为电影导演的。”你要成为一名医生。“所以，我想你在亚洲的家庭中看到很多这样的情况，也有父母告诉你，“你需要成为医生、律师或其他什么。“

Tiago (00:14:39): 蒂亚戈：
I mean everywhere, in Portugal is the same. Everyone wants you to become a lawyer or a doctor, because they make money.
我的意思是，在葡萄牙，到处都是一样的。每个人都希望你成为一名律师或医生，因为他们赚钱。

Pieter Levels (00:14:44):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Exactly. 没错

Tiago (00:14:45): 蒂亚戈：
Or a politician. 或者政客。

Pieter Levels (00:14:45):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It’s a way out. So it sucked because he wanted to be… And he did a lot of film. Now he’s retired and he studies film history and stuff and he’s doing a PhD in film history. Amazing. [inaudible 00:14:58]
这是一条出路所以这很糟糕因为他想成为…他拍了很多电影。现在他退休了，他研究电影史之类的东西，他正在攻读电影史的博士学位。棒了【听不见的声音】

Tiago (00:14:58): 蒂亚戈：
You think you are an inspiration for him?
你认为你是他的灵感？

Pieter Levels (00:15:02):
Pieter Levels（00：15：02）：
No, I think he’s an inspiration for me. My parents are, because… Well, I know what you mean. He always told us to do whatever we wanted to do because he was forced to become doctor. And that was a big lesson for me, this is also a point of luxury because if you grow up middle class or upper middle class, and Holland doesn’t really have poverty, honestly the country has a lot of social welfare systems. So most of the country’s middle class, which is really good, but my point is I had the opportunity because if I was his generation, my mom would’ve or my dad would’ve told me, “You need to become a doctor or a lawyer.” So I was the second generation of that cycle. And then you have the opportunity to become whatever you want. You can also become very lazy, I guess.
不，我觉得他是我的灵感。我父母是，因为…我明白你的意思他总是告诉我们做任何我们想做的事，因为他被迫成为医生。这对我来说是一个很大的教训，这也是奢侈的一个方面，因为如果你成长在中产阶级或中上层阶级，荷兰并没有真正的贫困，老实说，这个国家有很多社会福利制度。所以这个国家的大多数中产阶级，这真的很好，但我的观点是，我有机会，因为如果我是他那一代，我的妈妈或爸爸会告诉我，“你需要成为一名医生或律师。“所以我是那个周期的第二代。然后你就有机会成为你想成为的人你也可以变得非常懒惰，我想。

Tiago (00:15:55): 蒂亚戈：
So where did the inspiration come from, to become an entrepreneur? What were your idols?
那么，成为企业家的灵感来自哪里呢？你的偶像是什么？

Pieter Levels (00:15:59):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Man, so I come from music. First, I was doing graphic design, when I was 12 years old on the computer. Photoshop stuff and art, visual art. And I was in all these online communities. One was called Now Go Create, the other one was called Yayhooray, I think Yayhooray still exists. This was early internet, like 2003 or something, way back. And we’d always download illegal software. We download Photoshop, the warez websites. And we download Photoshop, we download other premier to make video, like After Effects. I made a lot of graphics like that, video graphics. I wanted to become really good at this art stuff. And then I went to a festival in my hometown, annual festival [foreign language 00:16:41] for this big event we have, and there was a guy with a laptop in this little, really small show. There was really big shows.
伙计，我是音乐出身。首先，我是做平面设计的，当我12岁的时候在电脑上。Photoshop的东西和艺术，视觉艺术。我在所有这些在线社区。一个叫Now Go Create，另一个叫Yayhooray，我想Yayhooray仍然存在。这是早期的互联网，就像2003年一样，很久以前。我们总是下载非法软件。我们下载Photoshop，软件网站。我们下载Photoshop，我们下载其他总理制作视频，如After Effects。我做了很多这样的图形，视频图形。我想成为真正擅长这种艺术的东西。然后我去了我家乡的一个节日，一年一度的节日[外语00：16：41]，我们有一个大事件，有一个家伙带着一台笔记本电脑在这个小，真的很小的节目。有很多大型演出。

Pieter Levels (00:16:48):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Music shows, all these really small shows and this guy was doing glitch music. He’s IDM, intelligent dance music, very pretentious. Anyway, he had a laptop and he was making music. I was like, “Wow, I have a computer.” So I went back around the stage and I looked at his laptop, which was the software. And then my brother was like, “That’s Reason.” So I downloaded this program, Reason, of course I downloaded it illegally, didn’t have money. And I started making music. And then first, I made IDM and then I made drum based music. And then I started DJing and my own songs, in Holland, and I started doing my own shows and stuff. And I even played in UK. I went on the radio in UK on the BBC. I was play listed with my music and it was going really well. But mostly I learned from making my own CD. Cause everyone-
音乐节目，所有这些非常小的节目和这个家伙做故障音乐。他是IDM，聪明的舞曲，非常自命不凡。总之，他有一台笔记本电脑，他在做音乐。我说：“哇，我有一台电脑。“所以我回到舞台上，看着他的笔记本电脑，这是软件。然后我哥哥说，“这就是原因。“所以我下载了这个程序，原因，当然我下载它非法，没有钱。我开始做音乐。首先，我做了IDM，然后我做了基于鼓的音乐。然后我开始DJ和我自己的歌曲，在荷兰，我开始做我自己的节目和东西。我甚至在英国玩过。我在英国的BBC上了电台。我和我的音乐一起播放，一切都很顺利。但我主要是从制作自己的CD中学到的。因为每个人-

Tiago (00:17:43): 蒂亚戈：
Making your own music, you didn’t do remixes.
做你自己的音乐，你不做混音。

Pieter Levels (00:17:45):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, I made my own music. That was the special thing. Because most people just DJ. I made my own songs.
不，我自己做的音乐。这是特别的事情。因为大多数人只是DJ。我自己写歌。

Tiago (00:17:51): 蒂亚戈：
See, that’s what I find really interesting already, because I really love music as well. I’m not a musician, but I play the guitar and I’m actually making an album, but just for fun. But I find it as the ultimate creative art. I don’t know. I feel the same with coding. I started coding because I found a way to transform my ideas into reality with just a laptop. And it’s the same with the guitar. You can get your thoughts into a song that makes sense and touch people. And it’s really a great way to explore your creativity. Is that why you like music so much, too?
看，这就是我觉得很有趣的地方，因为我也很喜欢音乐。我不是一个音乐家，但我弹吉他，我实际上正在制作一张专辑，但只是为了好玩。但我觉得这是一种终极的创造性艺术。我不知道。我对编码也有同样的感觉。我开始编程是因为我找到了一种方法，可以用一台笔记本电脑将我的想法变成现实。吉他也是一样。你可以把你的想法融入一首有意义的歌，打动人们。这真的是一个很好的方式来探索你的创造力。所以你也这么喜欢音乐？

Pieter Levels (00:18:33):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, my dad was also very creative and he always supported us to make all this stuff. All the computer stuff was new, but he was smart enough to think, “Okay, this is the future. So let these kids play in the computer a lot, make whatever they want.” My brother made 3D models, 3D animation with 3D studio max, back then, when he was a teenager. And my other brother was doing more hardware stuff, electronics and stuff, but we were always creating. And my dad and my mom always supported us to not go… We couldn’t ask for PlayStation or something, but we could ask for painting tools or a guitar or something. They really, I think, purposely pushed us towards creative tools to use, and I would do the same thing, but of course music, but every expression of creativity is just pure and magical. And if it’s visual art, graphic design music or writing, even, or websites, I think they’re entrepreneurship. I think this is the big thing people not in entrepreneurship and not in business they really misunderstand, entrepreneurship is way closer to creativity in arts than to corporate big business. I studied business, so I studied corporate stuff.
嗯，我爸爸也很有创造力，他总是支持我们做这些东西。所有的电脑设备都是新的，但他很聪明地认为，“好吧，这是未来。所以让这些孩子们玩电脑，做他们想做的。“我的兄弟做3D模型，3D动画与3D工作室最大，当时，当他还是一个十几岁的孩子。我的另一个兄弟做更多的硬件，电子和东西，但我们总是创造。我爸爸妈妈总是支持我们不去…我们不能要求游戏机或其他东西，但我们可以要求绘画工具或吉他或其他东西。我认为，他们真的故意把我们推向创造性的工具，我也会做同样的事情，当然是音乐，但每一种创造力的表达都是纯粹而神奇的。如果是视觉艺术、平面设计、音乐或写作，甚至是网站，我认为它们就是创业。 我认为这是一件大事，人们不是在创业，不是在商业，他们真的误解，创业是更接近创造力的艺术，而不是企业的大企业。我学的是商业，所以我学的是公司的东西。

Tiago (00:19:58): 蒂亚戈：
You did an MBA, right?
你读过工商管理硕士，对吧？

Pieter Levels (00:20:00):
Pieter Levels（00：20：00）：
So my bachelor’s was business administration and my master’s was entrepreneurship. So, I learned both things. And I think entrepreneurship is way closer to creativity and expression than to big corporate business, because business is about wearing suits and it’s management and it’s also interesting in its own way, but it’s more like MBA theory comes from the military actually, comes from 1950 US military management theory. And entrepreneurship comes from creativity, from arts. It’s completely different.
所以我的学士学位是工商管理，硕士学位是创业。所以，我学到了这两件事。我认为企业家精神更接近于创造力和表达力，而不是大公司的业务，因为商业是关于穿着西装和管理的，它也有自己的有趣之处，但它更像是MBA理论来自军事，实际上来自1950年的美国军事管理理论。创业精神来自创造力，来自艺术。完全不同

Tiago (00:20:38): 蒂亚戈：
I’ve been trying to find, with all the interviews I’ve done, I’m trying to find what is an entrepreneur? What is the core of being an entrepreneur? And one thing that I’ve noticed, is that most of the people I interviewed, is they want to create their own thing, and they might be really happy with the company that they are working for. But the only problem that people normally find, and I say these other times, is that it’s not their company. And if you compare it with, let’s say an artist, a painter, you can clearly distinguish the difference between painting someone else’s painting. Someone tells you to paint something, you just do it, or painting your own art. And it’s exactly the same for entrepreneur. You can have some fun working for others in the project that you believe in, but it’s completely different than making your own company.
我一直在试图找到，通过我所做的所有采访，我试图找到什么是企业家？作为一个企业家的核心是什么？我注意到的一件事是，我采访的大多数人，都想创造自己的东西，他们可能对他们工作的公司很满意。但人们通常发现的唯一问题，我说这些其他时候，是这不是他们的公司。如果你把它和一个艺术家，一个画家比较，你可以清楚地分辨出画别人的画之间的区别。有人告诉你画点什么，你就照做，或者画你自己的艺术品。对企业家来说也是一样。你可以在你相信的项目中为别人工作，但这与创建自己的公司完全不同。

Pieter Levels (00:21:29):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
A hundred percent. And I think part of it has to do with autonomy. Autonomy is a word we don’t use enough, I think. Autonomy, my friend [foreign language 00:21:41], he’s a Dutch writer, also makes startups now, but he writes a lot about autonomy. And the concept is that, having the power over your own decisions, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re egoistic or something, it means that you have your own authority over your own decisions and you choose. And if you choose to do things for other people, that’s also autonomy. It’s like, it’s not egoistic. It’s more like you set your own environments. You have to control
百分之百。我认为这与自主权有关。我认为，自主是一个我们用得不够多的词。Autonomy，我的朋友，他是一个荷兰作家，现在也创业，但他写了很多关于自治的文章。这个概念是，拥有自己决定的权力，并不一定意味着你是自私的或什么的，它意味着你有自己的决定权，你可以选择。如果你选择为别人做事，那也是自主权。就像，这不是自我中心。这更像是你自己设定的环境。你必须控制

Tiago (00:22:12): 蒂亚戈：
You have to control for your own life.
你必须控制自己的生活。

Pieter Levels (00:22:14):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
And of course, this all comes down to philosophy. This is a choice that probably has a lot to do with individualism, hyper individualism.
当然，这一切都归结为哲学。这个选择可能和个人主义，超级个人主义有很大关系。

Tiago (00:22:24): 蒂亚戈：
And psychology too though, because I feel that there are people that are not comfortable with taking their own decisions so much and they prefer being guided. And then there’s people that like the responsibility of taking their own lives in their own hands or even being a leader.
心理学也是如此，因为我觉得有些人对自己做决定感到不舒服，他们更喜欢被引导。还有一些人喜欢把自己的生命掌握在自己手中，甚至是一个领导者。

Pieter Levels (00:22:44):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, this is a controversial theme, but if you look at kids, when they grow up, how they’re playing creatively with their toys and drawing, every kid’s drawing always. They’re really creative and they’re really autonomous. And they are very excited about a lot of stuff. And I feel that the education system doesn’t give you… Many people say this, but they removed this autonomy and this creativity out of kids at a very early age. “No, you did it wrong. No, that’s not how you draw a tree. What if you draw a tree in a more interesting way?” It’s like you have to follow by the rules. And rules are, of course, they decimate creativity because the best creativity is unbound. You know what I mean?
这是一个有争议的话题，但如果你看看孩子们，当他们长大后，他们是如何创造性地玩玩具和画画的，每个孩子都在画画。他们真的很有创造力，他们真的很自主。他们对很多东西都很兴奋。我觉得教育系统没有给你给予.很多人这么说，但他们在孩子很小的时候就剥夺了他们的自主权和创造力。“不，你做错了。不，树不是这么画的。如果你用一种更有趣的方式画一棵树呢？“这就像你必须遵守规则。当然，规则会毁灭创造力，因为最好的创造力是不受约束的。你懂我的意思吗？

Tiago (00:23:39): 蒂亚戈：
I think, we are definitely getting very philosophical here, but I would also argue that, to live in a community, you need the leaders and the creators, and then you need the people that also fall in line. So, I don’t know if this is not just a survival thing, when they say, “No, this is not how we do it. We do it like this.” And then-
我认为，我们在这里肯定变得非常哲学化，但我也认为，要生活在一个社区中，你需要领导者和创造者，然后你需要人们也在排队。所以，我不知道这是否只是一个生存的问题，当他们说，“不，我们不是这样做的。我们是这样做的。“然后–

Pieter Levels (00:23:59):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I think you make an assumption that I don’t know if it’s true necessarily. Because you make an assumption based on this industrialist capitalist hierarchy of a percentage of top leaders and then some followers and stuff. I don’t think this is necessarily… It’s just how we run things now, but if you look at the future, this is not necessarily how we run things in the future. Look at the rise of crypto and decentralization and stuff where… And again, autonomy over your own accounts, your money, stuff, accounts that get frozen. I think the trend is not towards hierarchy. The trend is towards… More people have a voice, look at YouTubers now, that get more views than media channels. Media channels were hired-
我认为你做了一个假设，我不知道这是否一定是真的。因为你假设基于这个工业资本主义的等级制度，有一定比例的最高领导者，然后是一些追随者之类的。我不认为这是必要的…这只是我们现在的运作方式，但如果你看看未来，这不一定是我们未来的运作方式。看看加密货币和去中心化的兴起…同样，对你自己的账户，你的钱，东西，被冻结的账户的自主权。我认为趋势不是走向等级制度。趋势是朝着……更多的人有发言权，看看现在的YouTube，比媒体渠道获得更多的意见。媒体渠道被租用-

Tiago (00:24:48): 蒂亚戈：
Is it more people that have a voice or different people that have a voice? I don’t know, because now, if you’re a YouTuber, you can get a voice and maybe before you couldn’t, but still, it doesn’t mean that everyone can have a voice because not everyone can become a YouTuber.
是更多的人有声音还是不同的人有声音？我不知道，因为现在，如果你是一个YouTuber，你可以得到一个声音，也许以前你不能，但仍然，这并不意味着每个人都可以有一个声音，因为不是每个人都可以成为一个YouTuber。

Pieter Levels (00:25:04):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, everybody can have a voice because everybody can upload a video on YouTube.
不，每个人都有发言权，因为每个人都可以在YouTube上上传视频。

Tiago (00:25:08): 蒂亚戈：
But it doesn’t mean that people will listen to it.
但这并不意味着人们会听它。

Pieter Levels (00:25:11):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
True. But you have to define what it means having a voice, before you couldn’t even get on the TV, because of the gatekeeper and now it’s all open. I think that’s less [inaudible 00:25:24]
真的但你必须定义什么是有一个声音，之前你甚至不能在电视上，因为看门人，现在它是开放的。我觉得这是比较少的[2019 - 01 - 15 00：00：00]

Tiago (00:25:23): 蒂亚戈：
The potential is there, right?
潜力是有的，对吧？

Pieter Levels (00:25:26):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Having people listen to what you say, that’s never guaranteed. That shouldn’t be guaranteed, but you should be able to have a voice. I think we are going away from hierarchical structures, not towards it. Of course, you’re right, history is full of hierarchical structures. Looking at 12th century or something like the feudalism, people who own the land and rent it out and stuff, it’s definitely of old time. You’re right. But I don’t think it’s necessary.
让人们听你说的话，这从来没有保证。这不能保证，但你应该有发言权。我认为我们正在远离等级结构，而不是走向它。当然，你是对的，历史充满了等级结构。看看12世纪或类似封建主义的东西，人们拥有土地并将其出租，这绝对是旧时代。你是对的但我觉得没必要。

Tiago (00:25:59): 蒂亚戈：
This is a very interesting topic. I totally agree with you, but I tend always to question everything and understand if the reason why we’re doing it in a certain way, is it the right or wrong, but in the end there’s no right or wrong.
这是一个非常有趣的话题。我完全同意你的观点，但我总是倾向于质疑一切，并理解我们以某种方式做这件事的原因，它是对的还是错的，但最终没有对或错。

Pieter Levels (00:26:15):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It’s an interesting topic.
这是个有趣的话题

Tiago (00:26:17): 蒂亚戈：
Going back a little bit to entrepreneurship, even though I would speak about this for hours. You had your masters in business, but you also mentioned quite often that you learn most of your things by doing. And I’m very curious about what have you actually learned from your studies that it would be really hard for you to learn by just doing.
回到创业的话题，尽管我会讲上几个小时。你有商业硕士学位，但你也经常提到，你大部分的东西都是通过实践来学习的。我很好奇你们从学习中真正学到了什么，如果光靠做是很难学到的。

Pieter Levels (00:26:40):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Great question. So, I did my master’s in business and my master’s in entrepreneurship. And my bachelor’s… I tweeted this whole MBA thread, some years ago, with everything I learned, all the theory and stuff. And business theory is interesting, but very limited because it’s all these conceptual frameworks, like Porter’s Five Forces and stuff. It’s like these people, “I think we should categorize things in this way.” And you cannot test these things. This is social studies. You cannot test them scientifically, like you can test in biology or chemistry. So it’s all quite subjective, but I think basically [inaudible 00:27:20]. I think it’s barriers to entry. Being a market with high bears to entry, so it’s hard for competitors to get in. You need to differentiate as a company, as a product. That kind of stuff is interesting.
问得好所以，我完成了我的商业硕士学位和企业家硕士学位。我的单身汉…几年前，我在推特上发布了整个MBA帖子，包括我学到的一切，所有的理论和东西。商业理论很有趣，但非常有限，因为它是所有这些概念框架，如波特的五力和东西。就像这些人，“我认为我们应该这样分类。“你不能测试这些东西。这是社会研究。你不能科学地测试它们，就像你可以测试生物或化学一样。所以这一切都很主观，但我认为基本上[听不见00：27：20]。我认为这是进入的障碍。作为一个市场与高熊进入，所以它很难为竞争对手进入。你需要作为一个公司，作为一个产品来区分。这类东西很有趣。

Tiago (00:27:35): 蒂亚戈：
So these are concepts that you learn in your studies and are crucial for building your products as well.
所以这些都是你在学习中学到的概念，对构建你的产品也很重要。

Pieter Levels (00:27:42):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, I don’t even mean crucial. I think, honestly, if I was 18, I wouldn’t go to university. I would just skip it now. This was different than two years ago, I think. But now things are changing so fast. I think the only reason to go to university is to show you have the discipline to sit through four years of coursework and write a master thesis or something, or bachelor’s thesis, and show that you have the discipline. I think it’s a discipline test. But I just don’t think the connection… I think that world changing so fast now that there’s no connection necessarily. Especially with social studies like business, there’s no connection with the current reality of the world and what you learn in school. It’s just all outdated within a month.
我不是说很重要。老实说，如果我18岁，我就不会去上大学了。我现在就跳过它。这与两年前不同，我想。但现在情况变化太快了。我认为上大学的唯一原因是为了表明你有纪律，坐下来完成四年的课程，写一篇硕士论文或学士论文，并表明你有纪律。我觉得这是个纪律测试。但我不认为这种联系。我认为现在世界变化如此之快，以至于没有必要联系。特别是像商业这样的社会研究，与当今世界的现实和你在学校学到的东西没有联系。只是一个月内就过时了。

Tiago (00:28:28): 蒂亚戈：
So you think you could have had the same success you had with your projects without going through your studies?
所以你认为你可以有同样的成功，你有你的项目没有通过你的研究？

Pieter Levels (00:28:36):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I think yes. When I talk with my dad about it, he’s always like, “No, well, Pete, you learn a lot of integral academic fundamentals, blah blah.” And I’m like, “Mm,” because he’s really about this academic, but I’m like… I don’t don’t know, man.
我想是的。当我和我爸爸谈论这件事时，他总是说，“不，好吧，皮特，你学到了很多完整的学术基础，等等。我说，“嗯，”因为他真的是关于这个学术，但我想.我不知道，伙计。

Tiago (00:28:48): 蒂亚戈：
It’s hard now because you went through it. You would need to find examples of people that didn’t go through it.
现在很难，因为你经历过。你需要找到没有经历过的人的例子。

Pieter Levels (00:28:54):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Well, I know from my peers. It’s always good to compare yourself to your peers, my classmates and stuff. And most people didn’t start a company. And most people just went to become employees and stuff. Man, the amount stuff I learned in the reality and practical from doing things in the last eight years would be… Nothing bad against my university. I think it’s just all universities, but something like a thousand times more than stuff I learned in university. I know it’s unpopular opinion.
我从我的同伴那里知道的。把自己和同龄人、我的同学之类的比较总是好的。大多数人都没有开公司。大多数人只是去当雇员之类的。伙计，我在过去的八年里从现实和实践中学到的东西…我的大学没什么不好的。我认为这只是所有的大学，但比我在大学里学到的东西多一千倍。我知道这是不受欢迎的观点。

Tiago (00:29:30): 蒂亚戈：
Well, I totally agree. And in the end, of course, is one person that decided that for you to be called an engineer, you need to study these subjects. But in reality you need to learn much more, or just different things, depends also on what kind of engineer you want to become and so on.
我完全同意。最后，当然，是一个人决定你要被称为工程师，你需要学习这些科目。但实际上，你需要学习更多，或者只是不同的东西，这也取决于你想成为什么样的工程师等等。

Pieter Levels (00:29:46):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Hundred percent. 百分之百。

Tiago (00:29:47): 蒂亚戈：
It’s the basis. And you get the time also to go in depth into things that might not be super relevant, but it’s also important to know. Let’s say mathematics, you probably don’t use mathematics in your daily business, but knowing it, it’s also important somehow, because it trains your mind to maybe think in a different way.
它是基础。你也有时间深入研究那些可能不太相关的事情，但知道这些也很重要。比如说数学，你可能在日常生活中不会用到数学，但是知道它，它也很重要，因为它训练你的思维，也许用不同的方式思考。

Pieter Levels (00:30:14):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Obviously, I had a lot of problems with mathematics, cause I’m not good at it. So, I think I got kicked out of high school for my mathematics grades was too low. And I had to get back into university by doing all these tests for statistics and mathematics. And I studied all summer, for months in the attic of my parents’ house. Just learning this math stuff was so difficult, but then, honestly-
很明显，我在数学方面有很多问题，因为我不擅长数学。所以，我想我被高中开除是因为我的数学成绩太低了。我不得不通过统计学和数学的考试回到大学。我整个夏天都在学习，在我父母家的阁楼上学习了好几个月。光是学数学就很难，不过，说实话-

Tiago (00:30:44): 蒂亚戈：
[inaudible 00:30:44]. 【听不见的声音】

Pieter Levels (00:30:45):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, it was just very difficult for me. Dude, integrals, [inaudible 00:30:51] formulas and integrals are insane. You need to-
不，这对我来说太难了。伙计，积分，[听不见00：30：51]公式和积分是疯狂的。你需要-

Tiago (00:30:53): 蒂亚戈：
They’re insane. 他们疯了

Pieter Levels (00:30:54):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
You need to take a formula and then expand it into what it was. It’s so difficult. But I barely use that. In my coding, I do plus, some form variables. I do sometimes statistical tests, but that’s just easy stuff. You just search how it works. You install library like P-test, T-test and stuff, significance.
你需要得到一个公式，然后把它扩展成原来的样子。太难了但我很少用它。在我的编码中，我加上了一些表单变量。我有时做统计测试，但那只是简单的东西。你只是在研究它是如何工作的。你安装像P-test，T-test之类的库，重要性。

Tiago (00:31:23): 蒂亚戈：
That’s important. 这很重要。

Pieter Levels (00:31:24):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Again, it’s more about discipline. It’s showing that you can go through it. I think the social part of university is very important. Meeting people, dating, going on dates and stuff, parties. It’s very important. It’s extremely important, I think. But if you’re 18 now, and I keep meeting more and more of these people that are 18 and they just skip university and you just go nomad. And I think I would do that. I would go nomad, start businesses and stuff, try a lot of stuff. That’s the most exciting thing you can do now with your life. And right now, it’s probably as interesting and probably more interesting than university. I wouldn’t say this two years ago, but things have changed rapidly. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:32:07): 重试    错误原因
I totally understand an I see your point. I also think that people shouldn’t rush too much to start their own company. Just now, someone was talking with me on Twitter and asking, “I’m 18. I need to start my company right now. Otherwise I’m losing time.” I’m like, “What?” 重试    错误原因

Pieter Levels (00:32:26): 重试    错误原因
[inaudible 00:32:26] 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:32:26): 重试    错误原因
“Chill. There’s so much to learn.” And I don’t think that there’s a need for that stress, just out of the bat. 重试    错误原因

Pieter Levels (00:32:35): 重试    错误原因
No, but I think it’s natural. I had to stress, in my twenties. And it beat at 27 or something, where I just had mental breakdown. That’s also why I started traveling, but just this stress of like, “Oh my God, I’m going to be 30. I’m not successful. Blah, blah, blah, blah.” And I think becoming successful and then therapy helps a lot of that. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:33:05): 重试    错误原因
How do you deal with that? How do you deal with this, getting 30 and not being successful? How did you overcome that? 重试    错误原因

Pieter Levels (00:33:12): 重试    错误原因
So relative, successful. Because life is already great, but when you’re 27, 26 and you’re from Holland and you’re a middle class kid and your dream is to do startup and stuff, and then, of course, your definition of success is getting a successful startup. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:33:31): 重试    错误原因
But what is successful startup? It’s like a million, is it a thousand?
什么是成功的创业？好像有一百万，是一千吗？

Pieter Levels (00:33:38): 重试    错误原因
The definition is very vague. So that’s why you also go into therapy. What does that mean? What does it mean success for you?
这个定义非常模糊。所以你也要接受治疗。这是什么意思？成功对你来说意味着什么？

Tiago (00:33:45): 蒂亚戈：
Is this something crucial that people should define before starting?
这是人们在开始之前应该定义的重要内容吗？

Pieter Levels (00:33:51):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, you just go with the flow. But I think it’s natural that people at late twenties have these breakdowns. Everybody has it. It’s called Saturn Return, where the planet Saturn returns to the same place it was when you were born. I don’t believe in astrology, but that’s how they call it. And it usually happens after you graduate. And you’re like, “Wow, is this it? Is this my life? I have a job now, is this it? Almost free, am I going to die… In 50 years, is this what I’m going to do?” And after 30, you become much more chilled, at least I had that. And also with my business now doing well, it really helps to become more chill.
不，你就顺其自然吧。但我认为人们在20多岁的时候有这些崩溃是很自然的。每个人都有。这被称为土星回归，土星回到你出生时的同一个地方。我不相信占星术，但他们是这么叫的。而且通常在你毕业后才发生。你会说，“哇，是这个吗？这就是我的生活吗我现在有工作了，是吗？几乎自由了，我会死吗… 50年后，这就是我要做的吗？“30岁之后，你会变得更加冷淡，至少我有过。而且我的生意现在做得很好，这真的有助于变得更加冷静。

Tiago (00:34:30): 蒂亚戈：
Interesting. 有趣.

Pieter Levels (00:34:31):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I don’t need to impress people. I don’t need to… I can be very autonomous. I’m much more relaxed. I was very not relaxed. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:34:42): 重试    错误原因
It is stupid stories of Facebook and so on. People are like, “Look at him. He created Unicorn with 22.” And you only hear about this because it’s the survivor bias. So you’re like, “Oh my God, what am I doing? These people are so famous.” 重试    错误原因

Pieter Levels (00:34:58): 重试    错误原因
And the odds of you starting building on a company are so small, but the odds of you starting… That’s a good bridge towards any, but the odds of you starting a million dollar company are very reasonable, absolutely reasonable, absolutely possible. Because a million dollar company, what does that mean? It means five to 10x valuation of revenue. So a million dollar, what’s that? That’s 200k… Or 100k a year. That’s completely in reach, to make a little app or startup or product or website. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:35:31): 重试    错误原因
Let’s get into that. Because it seems to be in reach, because you see people doing it. But, for me, a bootstrapper that started this seven months ago and I’m making less than a hundred bucks a month. It seems very, very far. And I was a software developer before and I was making good salary, especially in Germany. And now, for me, it seems impossible to get to this salary as a bootstrapper, even though it’s my purpose and I totally love it.
让我们进入那个。因为它似乎触手可及，因为你看到人们这样做。但是，对我来说，一个七个月前开始的创业者，我每个月赚不到一百巴克斯。似乎非常，非常远。我以前是一名软件开发人员，薪水很高，特别是在德国。现在，对我来说，作为一个白手起家的人，似乎不可能得到这样的薪水，尽管这是我的目标，我完全喜欢它。

Pieter Levels (00:36:03):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
What were you making in Germany before?
你以前在德国做什么？

Tiago (00:36:05): 蒂亚戈：
60k. 六万

Pieter Levels (00:36:06):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
That’s a lot. Takes high. But that’s also the problem, because the longer you wait… Is called golden handcuffs. The longer you wait, the higher your salary becomes and the harder it is to leave, because when you quit and you make your own money, it’s much harder to make 5k with your own business than to do it as employee. Imagine you make 10k, it will take years to get to 10k with a startup. So it just gets hard and harder to work for yourself.
这可是一大笔钱。很高。但这也是个问题，因为你等得越久…叫做金手铐。你等待的时间越长，你的工资就越高，离开就越难，因为当你辞职，你自己赚钱的时候，用自己的生意赚5000美元比当雇员要难得多。想象一下，你赚了10k，创业公司要花很多年才能达到10k。所以为自己工作变得越来越难。

Tiago (00:36:37): 蒂亚戈：
And this is actually one of the questions I had here. What should one do, should you start something as a side gig and still have your job or should you just go all in?
这也是我想问的问题之一一个人应该做什么，你应该开始一些作为副业，仍然有你的工作，或者你应该去所有？

Pieter Levels (00:36:52):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, I think a hundred percent side gig. I did the same thing. So, I did my music stuff and then I started uploading it to YouTube and I accidentally built a business there. I became one of the biggest electronic music channels networks on YouTube back in 2008, 2009, 2010, because nobody else was uploading music on YouTube and I was one of the first. And I got all the big DJs and artists on my channel, in drum pace, house and a lot of other genres.
不，我认为是百分之百的副业。我也做了同样的事。所以，我做了我的音乐的东西，然后我开始上传到YouTube上，我意外地建立了一个业务。我在2008年、2009年、2010年成为YouTube上最大的电子音乐频道网络之一，因为没有其他人在YouTube上上传音乐，而我是第一个。我的频道里有所有的大DJ和艺术家，在鼓的速度，房子和很多其他类型。

Tiago (00:37:18): 蒂亚戈：
But if you are making music, then you are already an entrepreneur.
但如果你在做音乐，那么你已经是一个企业家了。

Pieter Levels (00:37:24):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
The thing was, I was making money with YouTube because not just my own music, but also other artists came on. I was making money with ads. So my point is, I was making $1,000, $2,000, sometimes $8,000 per month. And this gave me a side gig. This… Sorry, this gave me a main gig, so I could do side gig. So I could go travel after studying, because this YouTube channel was during my study days. And when I graduated, my friend [foreign language 00:37:51], the guy from Korea, the Dutch guy. He was like, “You can also do this remotely on the other side of the world. Why don’t you go travel with your laptop and just make these YouTube videos, if you make money anyway.” I’m like, “Cool. I’ll do it.” But the point was I had money flowing in already and that gave me… I left in April, 2014, went traveling and the first money I made was August, 2014 or something. So it took over a year get to any money. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:38:22): 重试    错误原因
I think you definitely need to have some savings. So, that’s what I’ve done. I got some savings. I’m actually getting unemployment money from Germany, which is amazing.
我觉得你一定要存点钱。所以，这就是我所做的。我存了些钱。实际上我从德国那里得到失业救济金，这太神奇了。

Pieter Levels (00:38:33):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
That’s nice. 真不错

Tiago (00:38:33): 蒂亚戈：
It’s really nice. But I still quit any job. So I still add to my savings, I have this money coming in. But I’m doing a hundred percent because it’s so much work. It’s so much things that you need to learn so much things you need to try that I cannot imagine how people can do this and still have an eight hours or nine hours job on the side.
真的很不错但我还是辞掉了工作。所以我仍然增加我的储蓄，我有这笔钱进来。但我已经做到百分之百了，因为工作量太大了。你需要学习的东西太多了，你需要尝试的东西太多了，我无法想象人们怎么能做到这一点，同时还有一份8小时或9小时的工作。

Pieter Levels (00:38:57):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
That’s life. Life is sacrifice. And entrepreneurship is sacrifice. So, if you want to do entrepreneurship, you need to sacrifice a lot of things. Again, this is the barrier to entry. If it would be easy to do it, everybody will be doing it. Everybody would be successful at it. So, I think entrepreneurship is one of the hardest things to do in life. I think, this is maybe biased, but I think it comes close to being a- 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:39:24): 重试    错误原因
Definitely in the professional life, I would say. 重试    错误原因

Pieter Levels (00:39:28): 重试    错误原因
Being a Olympic professional athlete is also really hard and I think it’s very similar. It takes so much of you, especially in the beginning, when things don’t work and it’s emotionally so exhausting that nothing that you do works. And by the way, same with artists. Again, it’s the same thing. You make all this music and nobody likes it. For years, nobody likes it. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:39:55): 重试    错误原因
For me, being an artist is being an entrepreneur. 重试    错误原因

Pieter Levels (00:39:57): 重试    错误原因
Because again, it’s the same thing. But all the other things, like a normal job, it’s so different because it’s not… Well, it’s exhausting in a very different way, but it’s not exhausting in that, nobody pays you money. You immediately get $2,000 a month, you get paid your salary from day one. It’s so different. And that’s why, I’d say the earlier you can get into entrepreneurship or becoming an artist or whatever, the better because you get so used to the golden handcuffs again. 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:40:29): 重试    错误原因
You get used to- 重试    错误原因

Tiago (00:40:30): 重试    错误原因
Interesting. I didn’t know that concept. 重试    错误原因

Pieter Levels (00:40:33):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Not to judge your personal choices, but I would recommend other people to not quit a job and go live on savings. Because that gives you a limited runway. I would maybe work part-time or something, and I know it’s hard and you need to sacrifice. So, when I did it, I was single, I didn’t have a girlfriend much of the time, so I didn’t have kids for example. So my point is, there was a lot of time, like in university, there was a lot of time to work on stuff for example. University is a great time to work on stuff because you barely need to be present at these classes. I would let my classmates sign for me, so I didn’t have to go to classes and you have a lot of time to work on stuff. That or having a main gig, and then working on the side, I think is recommendable, because you don’t want to run out of money and then you have to go back and it’s just depressing.
我不想评判你的个人选择，但我建议其他人不要辞职，靠储蓄生活。因为这会限制你的发展。我可能会做兼职什么的，我知道这很难，你需要牺牲。所以，当我做这件事的时候，我是单身，大部分时间我没有女朋友，所以我没有孩子。所以我的观点是，有很多时间，比如在大学里，有很多时间去做一些事情。大学是一个伟大的时间工作的东西，因为你几乎不需要在这些类在场。我会让我的同学为我签名，这样我就不必去上课，你有很多时间来做这些事情。或者有一个主要的演出，然后在一边工作，我认为是可以接受的，因为你不想用完钱，然后你必须回去，这只是令人沮丧。

Tiago (00:41:32): 蒂亚戈：
Definitely. And I’m in that position as well. Or I might be in the future, that I would have to go back, but I still think it was worth it, to be honest, I’ve learned a lot and not having a gig and having to rely on yourself only… I don’t know. It’s a different perspective. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this theory that the Vikings would burn their ships before invading new land.
绝对的我也是。或者我可能是在未来，我将不得不回去，但我仍然认为这是值得的，说实话，我学到了很多，没有演出，不得不依靠自己只.我不知道这是一个不同的视角。我不知道你是否听说过这样的理论维京人在入侵新大陆之前会烧毁他们的船只。

Pieter Levels (00:41:56):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Exactly. 没错

Tiago (00:41:57): 蒂亚戈：
And I understand it doesn’t work for everyone, but if you have some savings, at least for me, it worked. I also obviously agree with what you have to say.
我知道这并不适用于所有人，但如果你有一些储蓄，至少对我来说，它是有效的。我当然也同意你所说的。

Pieter Levels (00:42:04):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
You have unemployment money, that’s pretty much the main thing. How much is that? What you get?
你有失业救济金，这是最主要的。多少钱？你得到了什么？

Tiago (00:42:13): 蒂亚戈：
It’s a lot. It’s $1,700.
很多一千七。

Pieter Levels (00:42:14):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Perfect. Then you don’t need main gig. Then you made the perfect choice. You don’t need to go back. This is enough money to live on. And also, the nomad thing ties into this. A really good trick is to use this freedom to go live in a cheap place, move to somewhere where it’s affordable. It could be in your own country, move somewhere more rural, small town. Because most of the day you’re going to sit inside anyway on your computer, so why do you need to live in Berlin or in Amsterdam? When you can live in somewhere small.
完美了那你就不需要主要演出了你做了一个完美的选择你不需要回去。这些钱足够生活了。而且，游牧民族的事情也与此有关。一个很好的技巧是利用这种自由去住一个便宜的地方，搬到一个负担得起的地方。它可以在你自己的国家，搬到更偏远的地方，小城镇。因为一天中的大部分时间你都会坐在电脑前，所以你为什么要住在柏林或阿姆斯特丹？当你可以住在一个小地方。

Tiago (00:42:46): 蒂亚戈：
True, true, true. 对，对，对。

Pieter Levels (00:42:46):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
You could save a lot. An Amsterdam rent would be probably 1500 euros a month now, or 2,000.
你可以保存很多。阿姆斯特丹的房租现在可能是每月1500欧元，也就是2000欧元。

Tiago (00:42:51): 蒂亚戈：
Absolutely. Absurd. 当然了荒谬了

Pieter Levels (00:42:53):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Absurd. But then, a small town could maybe be 200 or 300. So, that would 5x your runway, so you could… Or something. That kind of stuff is interesting. And that’s also what I did with nomading, back then, I went to check my… Where I rented the hotel room, I talked to the manager, I think I paid 200 a month for a hotel room, just very small with the bed. And the food was… It was like 50 cents or something for a rice and chicken or $1. And my spending was quite low and that gave me a lot of runway to work on stuff.
荒谬了但是，一个小镇可能有200或300人。所以，这将是你跑道的5倍，所以你可以…什么的这类东西很有趣。这也是我做的游牧，当时，我去检查我的.我在那里租了一个酒店房间，我和经理谈过，我想我每个月花200美元租了一个酒店房间，只是床很小。食物也…一份米饭和鸡肉大概50美分，或者1美元。我的支出很低，这给了我很多时间去做一些事情。

Tiago (00:43:35): 蒂亚戈：
Definitely. If you get that possibility, I think it’s totally worth it. And if you are willing to do it, I think, some people might not be.
绝对的如果你有这种可能性，我认为这是完全值得的。如果你愿意这样做，我认为，有些人可能不会。

Pieter Levels (00:43:43):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Sacrifice, man. Life is sacrifice. If you want one thing, you won’t get the other thing.
牺牲，伙计。生活就是牺牲。如果你想要一样东西，你就得不到另一样东西。

Tiago (00:43:47): 蒂亚戈：
Going back to Rebase, because it’s also a bit connected with this, the possibility of helping people to move to different destinations. So how did this idea came to be?
再回到Rebase，因为它也和这个有点联系，帮助人们移动到不同的目的地的可能性。那么这个想法是怎么来的呢？

Pieter Levels (00:44:05):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Really interesting. So, before COVID started, this was December, 2019. I was in Chiang Mai, with Daniel John from ghost. Daniel’s my server guy. Andrey Asimov, the indie maker guy. A lot of my… Mark from BetaList and Whip. A lot of these famous indie people, a lot of my friends and a lot of nomads. And we were all in Chiang Mai and then COVID hits. And I think we flew to Malaysia, went to Penang. And we were in Penang and COVID was in China and was starting to spread to Malaysia, at the Thailand. And we didn’t really understand, was this going to be big? Were it small? Was this nothing? People immediately started wearing masks, in Asia was really good. And I asked Twitter, should I fly home? What if this thing… Because it went exponential. What if this thing gets worse in Asia, maybe escaped to Europe. And it was like, “Yeah, go to Europe now.” So I flew home, around early February and I went quarantine immediately. I went to the airport hotel in Amsterdam and I went there for 10 days and everybody was laughing at me. My parents were laughing at me. My friends were laughing me. Why would you quarantine? Man, this was before-
很有意思。所以，在新冠肺炎开始之前，这是2019年12月。我在清迈，和《人鬼情未了》里的丹尼尔约翰在一起。丹尼尔是我的服务员。安德烈·阿西莫夫，独立制作人。我的很多…来自BetaList和Whip的Mark。很多这些著名的独立人士，我的很多朋友和很多游牧民族。我们都在清迈，然后新冠肺炎来袭。我想我们飞到了马来西亚，去了槟城。我们在槟城，新冠病毒在中国，并开始蔓延到马来西亚，在泰国。我们真的不明白，这会很大吗？很小吗？这算什么？人们立即开始戴口罩，在亚洲真的很好。我问Twitter，我应该飞回家吗？如果这东西…因为它呈指数级增长。如果情况在亚洲恶化，可能逃到欧洲。我说“是啊现在就去欧洲吧“所以我在2月初飞回家，我立即被隔离。 我去了阿姆斯特丹的机场酒店，在那里呆了10天，每个人都在嘲笑我，我的父母在嘲笑我，我的朋友在嘲笑我，为什么要隔离？ 伙计，那是在-

Tiago (00:45:23):
Are you volunteering?

Pieter Levels (00:45:26):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Quarantine didn’t exist. This was nothing. We were on Telegram groups with… We knew everything. There was so much information that wasn’t on mainstream. The delay from our Telegram groups about COVID and to the mainstream media was four months, it was insane, or three months.
隔离区并不存在这不算什么。我们在Telegram群里…我们什么都知道。有太多非主流的信息。从我们关于新冠肺炎的电报组到主流媒体的延迟是四个月，这是疯狂的，或者三个月。

Tiago (00:45:43): 蒂亚戈：
Which groups are those? 是哪些组织？

Pieter Levels (00:45:45):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Just friend groups. And then there was specific COVID groups. Everybody already knew what was going to happen with COVID on Telegram in January, 26.
只是朋友小组。然后是特定的COVID群体。26年1月，每个人都已经在Telegram上知道COVID会发生什么。

Tiago (00:45:55): 蒂亚戈：
In Asia. 在亚洲

Pieter Levels (00:45:57):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, worldwide. We already knew what was going to happen, because you could look at the statistics. It was already scientists studying everything. Anyway, my point is, back then nobody knew anything. So I flew back. I was in the quarantine hotel, and this is in the airport hotel normally, voluntarily quarantine. Then I went to my parents’ house and I stayed there. I started buying food. I bought a thousand euros of food at the big supermarket, because we didn’t know if this was going to be a crazy pandemic killing everybody. Or it was like… Well it turned out to be pretty bad, but still.
不，全世界。我们已经知道会发生什么，因为你可以看看统计数据。已经有科学家在研究一切了。不管怎样，我想说的是，那时候没人知道。所以我飞回来了。我是在隔离酒店，这是在机场酒店正常，自愿隔离。然后我去了我父母家，我呆在那里。我开始买食物。我在大超市买了1000欧元的食物，因为我们不知道这是否会是一场疯狂的大流行病，杀死所有人。或者是…结果很糟糕，但还是。

Tiago (00:46:31): 蒂亚戈：
I did the same. Did you also buy toilet paper?
我也做了同样的事。你还买了厕纸吗？

Pieter Levels (00:46:36):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
No, no toilet paper. I stocked up my food, somewhere in February two or something. And my friends also did and I was wearing a mask. There was a guy who coughed at me because I was wearing a mask, February five, in the supermarket. This was all before everything.
不，没有厕纸。我在二月二号什么的时候把我的食物存起来了。我的朋友们也戴着面具。2月5日，在超市里，有一个家伙因为我戴着口罩，就对我咳嗽。这一切都在一切之前。

Tiago (00:46:53):
Dude, in Netherlands, it was really hard to convince people to wear a mask. I’ve been there and no one was wearing a mask, even in [inaudible 00:47:02]

Pieter Levels (00:47:02):
It’s horrible. Dutch people are a very interesting group of people. It took nine months for the Dutch CDC director, who’s an idiot, to admit, “Okay, masks work.” Like he said, “Don’t wear masks.” But anyway, let’s skip to the stuff. So, I was in Holland for six months, close to my parents. It was also, I wanted to be near my parents because this COVID was especially more vulnerable to older people. I wanted to be close in case something happened. And I was also just paranoid. I was scared that it would get to me as well. And then, after six months, Mark and me left Holland, Mark was also back home. Mark from Whip, battle list, indie maker. And we went traveling. We went to Berlin and Prague, because I was getting really depressed. I was getting really anxious. I had a long-term relationship and she was in Korea and I was in Holland. And it was not going well cause we were far apart and we ended up breaking up after, but it was all very depressing and psychologically exhausting for everybody, it was the whole COVID lockdown and stuff.
太可怕了荷兰人是一群非常有趣的人。荷兰疾控中心主任花了九个月的时间，他是个白痴，他承认，“好吧，口罩起作用了。“就像他说的，“不要戴面具。“但无论如何，让我们跳过这些东西。我在荷兰待了六个月，离我父母很近。另外，我想离父母近一点，因为这种新冠病毒对老年人来说特别脆弱。我想在附近以防万一。我也只是偏执。我很害怕我也会受到影响。六个月后，马克和我离开了荷兰，马克也回家了。《鞭子》里的马克，战斗名单，独立制作人。我们去旅行。我们去了柏林和布拉格，因为我真的很沮丧。我真的很焦虑。我有一个长期的关系，她在韩国，我在荷兰。 这并不顺利，因为我们相距甚远，我们最终分手后，但这一切都是非常沮丧和心理疲惫的每个人，这是整个COVID锁定和东西。

Tiago (00:48:11): 蒂亚戈：
Definitely. 绝对的

Pieter Levels (00:48:14):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So I started driving with Mark, started feeling better again. And then, on Nomad List Lisbon was starting to rank really high. And so, Mark and we were like, “Okay, let’s fly to Portugal.” And we ended up living there for I think eight months or something.
所以我开始和马克一起开车，开始感觉好多了。然后，在流浪者名单上，里斯本开始排名很高。所以，马克和我们就像，“好吧，让我们飞到葡萄牙。“我们最后在那里住了八个月左右。

Tiago (00:48:29): 蒂亚戈：
Really? 真的吗？

Pieter Levels (00:48:29):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
From September to April. 从九月到四月。

Tiago (00:48:32): 蒂亚戈：
In Lisbon? You lived in Lisbon city?
在里斯本？你住在里斯本？

Pieter Levels (00:48:35):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I lived in a coastal town, in Ericeira, but I was in Lisbon many times because there was… Lisbon was bustling, a lot of cool people. And Ericeira was really chill cause of COVID, because it was outside air. You could go for walks, Mark and me would go for walks a lot. It was COVID safe and stuff, and it was in nature.
我住在一个海滨小镇，在埃里塞拉，但我在里斯本很多次，因为有.里斯本很热闹，有很多很酷的人。由于新冠肺炎，埃里塞拉真的很冷，因为那是外面的空气。你可以去散步，马克和我经常去散步。这是COVID安全和东西，它是在自然界。

Tiago (00:48:58): 蒂亚戈：
Ericeira is super nice. I really like it too.
埃丽卡是超级好。我也很喜欢。

Pieter Levels (00:49:01):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
It’s magical place. It absolutely changed my life that place. The sunlight and the air, we started looking so good in the mirror. Our skin was glowing and there’s something about… It’s so healthy to live there. I don’t know what it is, but the sea salt maybe, but we felt so good. We invited friends over and they were the same. They came from this psychologically stressed, depressed vibe from COVID and then being in Ericeira and going for walks and eating nice food and seeing the ocean and surfing, as well. So, we ended up there and I kept talking to people, foreigners there also, like nomads, and they kept saying, “Yeah, I’m now a resident in Portugal.” And I’m like, “What does it mean?” They’re like, “Well, I moved here and there’s a lot of benefits foreigners to move here.” And I was like, “Okay, interesting.” But I wasn’t really that interested, but it kept coming up. And then, I was looking for a place to live, as a base, also for taxes because I have a company, but I also need to be… If you’re nomad, you need a legal place to have a bank account and to spend money and stuff. And so, I was like, “Okay, this kind of makes sense for me, [inaudible 00:50:22] Portugal.”
是个神奇的地方。它完全改变了我的生活在那个地方。阳光和空气，我们开始在镜子里看起来很好。我们的皮肤在发光而且有种…住在那里很健康。我不知道那是什么，但也许是海盐，但我们感觉很好。我们邀请了朋友过来，他们都是一样的。他们来自这种心理压力，抑郁的氛围，从新冠肺炎，然后在埃里塞拉和散步，吃好吃的食物，看到海洋和冲浪，以及。所以，我们在那里结束了，我一直在和人们交谈，也有外国人，像游牧民，他们一直说，“是的，我现在是葡萄牙的居民。“我就想，“这是什么意思？“他们说，“好吧，我搬到这里，有很多好处的外国人搬到这里。“我说，“好吧，有趣。“但我并不是真的那么感兴趣，但它不断出现。 然后，我在找一个地方住，作为一个基地，也为税收，因为我有一个公司，但我也需要…如果你是流浪汉，你需要一个法律的地方来开一个银行账户和花钱。所以，我想，“好吧，这对我来说是有意义的，[听不见00：50：22]葡萄牙。"

Tiago (00:50:24):
A lot of people ask me this. So, what is the best legal setup for a nomad? So, you need to have a base and then you pay taxes in that country? Is that it?

Pieter Levels (00:50:34):
I think you need to talk to a lawyer. It’s really personal, your own situation, but the point is, if you live somewhere over six months, you need to pay tax there. That’s the concept. That’s the most important concept. And if you don’t live anywhere over six months, then there’s an international law that usually falls back to your citizenship country. So, if you are German and you German citizen, which is different than residents. So citizen is where you’re born, where your passport is. And resident is where you’re registered. So, if you’re German citizen and you fly around the world and you live nowhere and everywhere, then generally you’re still taxable in Germany because it’s a fallback rule.

Tiago (00:51:19): 蒂亚戈：
Got it. 知道了

Pieter Levels (00:51:20):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
But if you move to Portugal and you’re there, you register as a resident, you’re still German citizen, but you register in Portugal. And generally, if you’re there six months in a year, now you are Portuguese resident and a Portuguese taxpayer and Germany doesn’t care anymore. As long as you’re not making money in Germany. So, this is like a minefield, you need to really do it properly. And Portugal is very beneficial because it gives you a lot of benefits, tax benefits, but also they’re very pro-foreigner, the government wants to attract foreigners. They’re waiting with open arms to attract foreigners. There’s no tax on crypto right now, that’s, for example, interesting.
但如果你搬到葡萄牙，你在那里，你登记为居民，你仍然是德国公民，但你在葡萄牙登记。一般来说，如果你一年在那里呆六个月，现在你是葡萄牙居民，是葡萄牙纳税人，德国不再在乎了。只要你不在德国赚钱。所以，这就像一个雷区，你需要真正做到这一点。葡萄牙是非常有利的，因为它给你很多好处，税收优惠，但他们也非常亲外国人，政府希望吸引外国人。他们张开双臂等待吸引外国人。现在没有对加密货币征税，这很有趣。

Tiago (00:51:58): 蒂亚戈：
And one thing that also didn’t know, there’s no tax on foreign income. Really? You can make money from outside and then there’s no tax on it.
还有一件事也不知道，外国收入是不征税的。真的吗？你可以从外面赚钱，而且不用交税。

Pieter Levels (00:52:07):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So there specific cases. So, again, I’m not lawyer and that’s why I cannot disclose any legal information about the stuff. But you need to check your own personal situation, but there’s specific cases where Portugal, once they track foreigners that have, for example, retirement money or death savings, or they have foreign dividends for example, which are then not taxed for 10 years. And the reason Portugal does this is because they want to attract foreigners to spend money in their country. So, imagine you’re Portugal, which has a brain drain, which is losing population every year now. They just had largest decrease in population in 50 years-
所以有具体的案例。所以，再说一次，我不是律师，这就是为什么我不能透露任何有关这些东西的法律的信息。但你需要检查你自己的个人情况，但有一些具体的情况，葡萄牙，一旦他们跟踪外国人，例如，退休金或死亡储蓄，或者他们有外国股息，然后不征税10年。葡萄牙这样做的原因是他们想吸引外国人在他们的国家消费。所以，想象一下你是葡萄牙，它有人才流失，现在每年都在失去人口。他们刚刚经历了50年来最大的人口减少-

Tiago (00:52:47): 蒂亚戈：
True. 真的

Pieter Levels (00:52:47):
… last year. So, everybody’s leaving Portugal, or a lot of people are leaving Portugal, because there’s not a lot of opportunities for Portuguese. And Portuguese companies, they don’t pay a lot.

Tiago (00:52:56):
Paychecks are shit in Portugal.

Pieter Levels (00:52:58):
The minimum wage or something, or the average wage, is something like 700 euros a month. If you look at the comparison with the rest of Europe, this is a East European country level.

Tiago (00:53:08):
I lived in Germany, and coming back to Portugal, that’s the biggest pain , for sure.

Pieter Levels (00:53:13):
It’s really bad. And there’s a lot of reasons to go into why this is the case, but it comes down to that Portugal needs foreigners and the government has stated that vividly.

Tiago (00:53:26):
So, you realized that the government was… One, foreigners, there were people setting up their base in Portugal. And then, what did you decide to do, did you try to see, “Okay, I want to do the same.”

Pieter Levels (00:53:39):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So I set it up too. And I was really scared. This is going to be like a legal minefield. I got a lot of lawyers, immigration advisors, tech advisors, to all go through my setup and they were all like, “Yeah, this is legal. This is good.” And then, I kept getting people asking me, “Hey, I also want to do this. I also want to register Portugal. I want to move to Portugal.” And I was like, “Interesting. This has a little bit to do with COVID.” Because it was hard to go to Bali. It was hard to go to Asia, to all those places in where nomads normally go, like Thailand and Bali. It’s hard to go there, because COVID was… All the borders were closed. So a lot of people that usually go to Bali, Asia, Thailand, they would end up in Portugal. Second, new kind of scene of nomads.
所以我也安排了。我真的很害怕。这就像一个法律的雷区。我找了很多律师，移民顾问，技术顾问，都通过我的设置，他们都喜欢，“是的，这是法律的。这很好“然后，我不断有人问我，“嘿，我也想这样做。我也想注册葡萄牙。我想搬去葡萄牙。“我就说，“有意思。这和COVID有点关系。“因为去巴厘岛很难。很难去亚洲，去那些游牧民族通常去的地方，比如泰国和巴厘岛。去那里很难，因为新冠病毒…所有的边界都被关闭了。所以很多人通常去巴厘岛，亚洲，泰国，他们最终会去葡萄牙。二是游牧民族的新风貌。

Pieter Levels (00:54:25):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
So I was like, “Okay, maybe I can make a type form and try resell these services or refer my immigration advisors to these people that wanted, for some money.” And made this type form, got some customers. And then, in November, I made a whole landing page for it and I launched it. Well, I accidentally launched it on Twitter. I just made a photo of my laptop, on my bed, working on it. I wrote like POV building immigration as a service startup. It went viral, and everybody suddenly signed up, and there was 500 signups in a month.
所以我想，“好吧，也许我可以做一个类型的形式，并尝试转售这些服务或介绍我的移民顾问，这些人想要的，一些钱。“并制作了这种类型的表格，得到了一些客户。然后，在11月，我为它做了一个完整的登陆页面，然后我启动了它。嗯，我不小心在Twitter上启动了它。我只是拍了一张我的笔记本电脑的照片，在我的床上，在上面工作。我写了一句话，就像是把移民局建设成一个服务型创业公司。它像病毒一样传播开来，每个人都突然注册了，一个月内有500个注册。

Tiago (00:55:02): 蒂亚戈：
All right, so this is something that I really need to ask, because for me it’s amazing. So, I understand the idea phase. So you identify a problem, a problem that you own, you have yourself. So it’s much easier for you to understand the problem and how to fix and so on. And that’s definitely a great way to bootstrap a project. But then the launching part is something that I don’t fully understand because you add the same, for instance with digital nomad… With the-
好吧，这是我真的需要问的，因为对我来说，这是惊人的。所以，我理解了想法阶段。所以你发现了一个问题，一个你自己的问题，你自己的问题。所以你更容易理解问题以及如何修复等等。这绝对是引导项目的好方法。但是启动部分是我不完全理解的，因为你添加了相同的东西，例如数字游牧民族。带着-

Pieter Levels (00:55:30):
Pieter Levels（00：55：30）：
Nomad List. [inaudible 00:55:31]
流浪者名单。【听不见的声音】

Tiago (00:55:31):
With the Nomad List, you just decided to, “My website then was up because of some NGNINX config and suddenly I add thousands of people.” I was like, “No, that’s not how it happens to me for me.” For me, I will share it with thousands, or in Reddit, everywhere. And I didn’t get enough people. And I was reading your book and I can see that you focus a lot on launching. And you say that launching is overlooked. So, what is that? What is the difference between your launch and my launch? Why does it yours work so much better than mine?

Pieter Levels (00:56:04):
Well, so people say like, “Look, he already has followers.” And I think it’s true, but it wasn’t true in the beginning. And Nomad List also went viral. So, I think it might have to do with the topic remote work and digital nomad stuff has been hot since 2014, it’s an exciting topic. And so, there’s this thing with, you have reality and you have things that are happening, and companies that are being made now. And then, you have people’s brain, and their secrets, and their insight of their brain, what they’re actually thinking. And you want to be in the time where a lot of people are sickly thinking the same thing, but they’re not saying or doing it yet.

Tiago (00:56:50):
How do you know?

Pieter Levels (00:56:51):
Well, exactly. I have a lot of times where I’m in a group setting and I will be like… For example, your… Meaning, all these people, you’re having dinner and stuff, but you’re really tired, for example, you’re tired of walking all day, but nobody says that, everybody’s kind of… And then I say, “I think I’m really tired.q Maybe we should just chill somewhere or I should go sleep.” And everybody’s like, “Yeah, actually me too.” Many times… This is really bad example, actually. Many times I feel like I think things, and because I try to do radical honesty, I try to just say what I think, it comes out and then suddenly people are like, “Yeah, I wanted to say the same thing, but I was scared.” It was too crazy or something. I think, moving to Portugal, it’s kind of crazy in a way. Let’s move to Portugal and register Portugal and pay taxes there.
嗯，没错。我有很多次我在一个小组的设置，我会像…例如，你的…意思是，所有这些人，你在吃晚饭，但你真的很累，例如，你厌倦了整天走路，但没有人这么说，每个人都有点…然后我说，“我想我真的很累了。也许我们应该在某个地方放松一下，或者我应该去睡觉。“每个人都说，“是的，实际上我也是。“很多次…实际上，这是一个很糟糕的例子。很多时候我觉得我在想事情，因为我试着做彻底的诚实，我试着说出我的想法，然后突然人们就像，“是的，我想说同样的事情，但我很害怕。“这太疯狂了，或者别的什么。我想，搬到葡萄牙，在某种程度上是有点疯狂。让我们搬到葡萄牙，在葡萄牙注册并在那里纳税。

Pieter Levels (00:57:46):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
And with Nomad List was same. Let’s move to all these cities in the world and just go live there for a while. So I think the trick is to… Because with Nomad List, I was observing that this was happening already. I was in Chiang Mai, and I saw 20 to 30, 40 people, 40 nomads there, living there. But it was very small, now it’s thousands. But I was observing that people were already doing something and I was working for them, but they were not normal people, they were a little bit weird people. They were strange. I’m strange, I think. And then, you need to observe, you need to try, is this a fringe, is the word? F-R-I-N-G-E. A fringe thing, a new thing that’s frowned upon. And then many times -
《流浪者名单》也是一样。我们搬到世界上所有的城市去住一段时间吧。所以我觉得关键是…因为在《流浪者名单》中，我观察到这种情况已经发生了。我在清迈，我看到20到30，40个人，40个游牧民族，住在那里。但它是非常小的，现在它是数千。但我观察到人们已经在做一些事情，我为他们工作，但他们不是正常人，他们是有点奇怪的人。他们很奇怪。我很奇怪，我想。然后，你需要观察，你需要尝试，这是一个边缘，是这个词？F-R-I-N-G-E一个边缘的东西，一个新的东西，不赞成。很多次-

Tiago (00:58:37): 蒂亚戈：
This is where intuition comes in. And I know that you believe in intuition.
这就是直觉发挥作用的地方。我知道你相信直觉。

Pieter Levels (00:58:42):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
God, intuition. Because many times when you think something, everybody else is thinking the same thing, because we’re all on the internet and we’re all reading the same shit. And we’re all… Everybody watches porn, everybody does things we don’t talk about or reads articles… Actually, we have a collective brain, but people are limited by the constraints of acceptable society. You cannot just move to Portugal. It’s outrageous. You shouldn’t do that.
天啊，直觉。因为很多时候，当你想到某件事的时候，其他人也在想同样的事情，因为我们都在互联网上，我们都在阅读同样的东西。我们都…每个人都看色情片，每个人都做我们不谈论的事情或阅读文章…事实上，我们有一个集体的大脑，但人们受到可接受社会的限制。你不能就这么搬到葡萄牙去。太过分了你不应该那样做。

Tiago (00:59:10): 蒂亚戈：
Most people will think about it, but say, “Okay, this is impossible.”
大多数人会考虑它，但说，“好吧，这是不可能的。“

Pieter Levels (00:59:18):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
Man, I would love move to Portugal, but it would be unacceptable because I have my friends here and I have my job here. How would my boss react? My boss doesn’t accept that I work remotely, all these things. So thinking like this is quote, “What people do on the weekends, or what nerds or someone, do on the weekends, everybody else will be doing in the week 10 years later or something,” is a quote. So, if you are doing something special, new… There’s a lot of examples of this, like indie games. People that were making indie games in 2010 or something, and then it blew up. But if you’re doing this, this is the problem also I see in every scene, music, start, everything. People are always doing the same everybody else is doing. And it’s going to give you horrible results, because you need to be on the edge of something new.
伙计，我很想搬到葡萄牙，但这是不可接受的，因为我在这里有我的朋友，我在这里有我的工作。我的老板会作何反应？我老板不接受我远程工作，所有这些。所以这样想是引用，“人们在周末做的事情，或者书呆子或某人在周末做的事情，其他人在10年后的一周会做什么，”是引用。所以，如果你正在做一些特别的，新的…有很多这样的例子，比如独立游戏。在2010年做独立游戏的人，然后它爆炸了。但如果你这样做，这也是问题，我看到在每一个场景，音乐，开始，一切。人们总是在做其他人都在做的事情。它会给你给予可怕的结果，因为你需要在新事物的边缘。

Tiago (01:00:13):
So, you think that your edge, when you’re launching something is not really your technique of launching, is more the product and the audience.

Pieter Levels (01:00:23):
No, I think it’s the market. I think it’s the-

Tiago (01:00:25):
The market.

Pieter Levels (01:00:26):
You need to be tapped into the vein of people’s brain.

Tiago (01:00:30):
In the exact right time, as well.

Pieter Levels (01:00:33):
And obviously, that goes wrong, because I’ve launched over 70 projects and only three, or four, or something, worked out. So, most of the times you’re wrong, but you need to try. And sometimes you’re like, because I didn’t expect this Rebase to blow up like this. Now it’s getting like 400, 500 applicants per month. And then at this rate we will have 10% of the Portuguese immigration market. All people moving to Portugal, 10%.

Tiago (01:00:59):
You will have 10%? That’s absurd.
你要10%？太荒唐了

Pieter Levels (01:01:01):
Pieter Levels（01：01：01）：
Because 60,000 or 50,000 people move to Portugal a year. So, it is crazy. So my point is-
因为每年有6万或5万人移居葡萄牙。所以，这很疯狂。所以我想说的是-

Tiago (01:01:07): 蒂亚戈（01：01：07）：
Did the Prime Minister already reach out to you?
首相已经联系你了吗

Pieter Levels (01:01:09):
Pieter Levels（01：01：09）：
No, everybody asked me, but these governments are so hard to reach, but it’s okay. I don’t care.
不，每个人都问我，但这些政府是如此难以达到，但它的好。我不管

Tiago (01:01:15): 蒂亚戈（01：01：15）：
There’s elections now, it could help.
现在有选举，这可能会有帮助。

Pieter Levels (01:01:16):
Pieter Levels（01：01：16）：
Well, I hope they don’t change the rules. They would ruin my business.
希望他们不会改变规则。他们会毁了我的生意。

Tiago (01:01:23): 蒂亚戈（01：01：23）：
That would be- 如果那样的话-

Pieter Levels (01:01:25):
Pieter Levels（01：01：25）：
TLDR. Most people are probably interesting and unique, but again, the same thing with kids in education system, it removes their creativity, same thing with people. If you say something crazy in your friend group, I had the same in Holland. I would say crazy stuff that I felt. And they’re like, “Pieter, don’t say that. What the fuck are you talking about? That’s not normal-”
TLDR。大多数人可能是有趣和独特的，但同样的事情，在教育系统中的孩子，它消除了他们的创造力，同样的事情与人。如果你在你的朋友圈里说了什么疯狂的话，我在荷兰也有过同样的经历。我会说出我感觉到的疯狂的事情。他们就说，“彼得，别这么说。你他妈的在说什么？这不正常–”

Tiago (01:01:47): 蒂亚戈：
Acceptable. 可以接受的

Pieter Levels (01:01:48):
“… thinking,” or something. Acceptable. And you need to let your brain think things, because they are interesting and they might make great arts, they might make great businesses. Think differently is the whole concept, think differently.

Tiago (01:02:06):
Don’t be afraid of think differently. And if you take also another example, which is Elon Musk, and-

Pieter Levels (01:02:15):
Same.

Tiago (01:02:16):
I know a lot of people might not like it, but-

Pieter Levels (01:02:18):
No, I love Elon Musk and I don’t understand why people don’t like this guy because he’s going to Mars.

Tiago (01:02:22):
That’s exactly it.

Pieter Levels (01:02:25):
It’s a very, very, very strange side, guys, now, that people don’t like Elon Musk. It’s very strange, man. It’s it disturbs me.

Tiago (01:02:31): 蒂亚戈（01：02：31）：
I think when you reach a certain point, you always have haters, but my point is that, he thinks, “Okay, how cool would it be to have a really nice electric car?” And everyone’s like, “Yeah, that’s impossible.” But he thinks, “No. I mean, how cool would this be? Yeah, it’s cool. Let’s make it.” How cool would it be to click in a button, move to Portugal. And everyone like, “This is impossible.” No, it’s super cool, right? Yes. Then let’s build it.
我认为当你达到某个点时，你总是会有仇恨者，但我的观点是，他想，“好吧，如果有一辆非常好的电动车会有多酷？每个人都说，“是的，这是不可能的。“但他想，“不，我的意思是，这将是多么酷？”是的，很酷。让我们做它。“点击一个按钮，搬到葡萄牙，那该有多酷啊。每个人都说“这不可能“不会吧，很酷吧？是的那我们就造吧

Pieter Levels (01:02:57):
Pieter Levels（英语：Pieter Levels）
I didn’t even know this was possible. So you need to… Man, how you explain this? So you have all these immigration advisors, and they’re doing everything with emails and invoices and bank wires and stuff, and it’s all really slow. And you need to have some assumption like, “I think, let’s just do this through Stripe. Let’s just do all the forms digital.” You need to have some naive perception that this is going to work out and that these immigration advisors or some of people you work with are going to accept that you’re doing all this stuff, because they live in a completely different reality. And it’s just, you need to jump in the pool and try. And it will probably not work out, and sometimes it does work out. And that’s also the thing with people trying any startup stuff, is they try once, they will work on a project for a year, and then of course, it doesn’t work out, because the odds are like 3% or 4%, if you’re doing really good.
我都不知道这是可能的。所以你需要…伙计，你怎么解释这个？所以你有所有这些移民顾问，他们做的一切与电子邮件和发票和银行电汇和东西，这一切真的很慢。你需要有一些假设，比如，“我想，让我们通过Stripe来做这件事。我们把表格都数字化吧。“你需要有一些天真的看法，这将工作，这些移民顾问或一些人与你一起工作将接受你做的所有这些东西，因为他们生活在一个完全不同的现实。只是，你需要跳进游泳池试试。它可能不会成功，有时它确实会成功。这也是人们尝试任何创业的事情，他们尝试一次，他们会在一个项目上工作一年，然后当然，它不会成功，因为几率是3%或4%，如果你做得很好。

Tiago (01:03:55): 蒂亚戈（01：03：55）：
You need to try multiple things.
你需要尝试多种方法。

Pieter Levels (01:03:56):
Pieter Levels（01：03：56）：
You need to try, man. I think you need to try 20, 30 times.
你得试试，伙计。我觉得你得试个二三十次。

Tiago (01:04:03): 蒂亚戈（01：04：03）：
Also one thing, and from your book, we can really see this. You really know how to launch in each platform and how it works, how each platform works. Reddit is different, and Hacker News and Product Hunt and so on. So, I think it’s also really crucial for people to study the platform before launching, understanding the people they are launching to. This is also [inaudible 01:04:24]
还有一件事，从你的书中，我们真的可以看到这一点。你真的知道如何在每个平台上启动，它是如何工作的，每个平台是如何工作的。Reddit是不同的，还有Hacker News和Product Hunt等等。所以，我认为人们在发布之前研究这个平台，了解他们发布的对象也是非常重要的。这也是一个[2019 - 01 - 04 01：04：04]

Pieter Levels (01:04:24):
Also true, but-

Tiago (01:04:25):
… but it’s really crucial as well.

Pieter Levels (01:04:29):
My biggest annoyance is people that are thinking you can just write a tweet and then you can post on Instagram and you can post it on TikTok and you can post it on Reddit. This is bullshit. They’re so different. Something that works in Instagram, doesn’t work on Twitter, doesn’t work on TikTok, doesn’t work on… Reddit is completely anti-spam. So, the only way to leverage Reddit is to give value, to be a beneficial community member. And then, you might be able to get them to use your thing and asking for feedback for example, but you cannot just come in with, “Look, I launched a startup.” Nobody cares you launched a startup, “Average launched a startup.” Nobody cares. It’s not interesting. It’s annoying. It looks like spam.
我最大的烦恼是人们认为你可以写一条推文，然后你可以在Instagram上发布，你可以在TikTok上发布，你可以在Reddit上发布。这是胡扯。他们是如此不同。在Instagram上有效，在Twitter上无效，在TikTok上无效，在…… Reddit完全是反垃圾邮件的。所以，利用Reddit的唯一方法就是给予价值，成为一个有益的社区成员。然后，你也许可以让他们使用你的东西，例如，要求反馈，但你不能只是进来，“看，我启动了一个创业公司。“没人在乎你启动了一家初创公司，“平均启动了一家初创公司。“没人在乎。没什么意思真烦人。看起来像垃圾邮件。

Tiago (01:05:18): 蒂亚戈（01：05：18）：
It’s funny, because we live too much inside of our brain and we are selfish by design. So, we think that we are… We all think that we’re at the center of the world somehow. And we all think, “Everyone will care that I launch a startup,” but then, put yourself in the other person’s shoes. If someone says, “I just launched a startup, whatever.” Would you actually care? Would you click? I try to always do this exercise, but it’s very hard.
这很有趣，因为我们太多的生活在我们的大脑里，我们是自私的设计。所以，我们认为我们是…我们都以为自己在世界的中心。我们都认为，“每个人都会关心我启动一个创业公司，”但是，把自己放在别人的鞋子里。如果有人说，“我刚创办了一家初创公司，随便吧。“你真的会在乎吗？你会点击吗？我试着一直做这个练习，但是很难。

Pieter Levels (01:05:40):
Pieter Levels（01：05：40）：
This is great exercise. The best thing you learn is like that. People who say, I meet lot of those people, “I’m going to build a billion on a company.” And they’re so confident their own thing. [inaudible 01:05:52]
这是很好的锻炼。你学到的最好的东西就是这样。有人说，我见过很多这样的人，“我要在一家公司上赚10亿。“他们对自己的事情很有信心。【听不见的声音】

Tiago (01:05:52): 蒂亚戈（01：05：52）：
And what is the idea? I’m not telling you the idea.
这是什么想法？我不是在告诉你这个想法。

Pieter Levels (01:05:55):
Pieter Levels（01：05：55）：
That stuff. And then they launch and it completely, nobody cares. And it barely goes, but this is good. This is a reality check, because everybody thinks they’re actually special and it’s not, you need to get stuff out the door. So, your first product will fail, probably. And your second also may fail also, but this gives you a reality check that what you make should actually be somewhat interesting, better or cheaper. Needs a better product or it needs to be cheaper products.
那些东西然后他们发射了，完全没有人在乎。它几乎不动，但这很好。这是一个现实检查，因为每个人都认为他们实际上是特别的，它不是，你需要得到的东西出门。所以，你的第一个产品可能会失败。你的第二个也可能失败，但这给了你一个现实的检查，你做的东西实际上应该有点有趣，更好或更便宜。需要更好的产品，或者更便宜的产品。

Tiago (01:06:27): 蒂亚戈：
And can you now, better distinguish if a product will or not succeed before starting it, with your experience?
你现在能更好地区分一个产品是否会成功，在开始之前，以你的经验？

Pieter Levels (01:06:35):
Pieter Levels（01：06：35）：
I focus a little bit more on… Not necessarily, but like Rebase, I know it’s a money opportunity. It could make a lot of money.
我更关注…不一定，但就像Rebase一样，我知道这是一个赚钱的机会。可以赚很多钱。

Tiago (01:06:43): 蒂亚戈（01：06：43）：
So you start thinking about monetization immediate [inaudible 01:06:47]
所以你开始考虑立即货币化（听不清）

Pieter Levels (01:06:47):
Pieter Levels（01：06：47）：
Also, no, because I make enough money. Now it’s something like two to three million a year. So I don’t… Crazy amount of money, by the way.
“不，因为我赚了足够的钱。现在大概是一年两三百万。所以我不…一大笔钱，顺便说一下。

Tiago (01:06:57): 蒂亚戈：
For you, almost. You don’t have a lot of expenses, right?
对你来说，差不多。你没有太多的开销，对吧？

Pieter Levels (01:07:00):
Pieter Levels（01：07：00）：
Exactly. So, it’s insane money and I barely spend it.
没错所以，这是一笔疯狂的钱，我几乎不花。

Tiago (01:07:04): 蒂亚戈（01：07：04）：
It’s crazy. 太疯狂了

Pieter Levels (01:07:05):
Pieter Levels（01：07：05）：
It’s all invested. 全都投资进去了。

Tiago (01:07:06): 蒂亚戈（01：07：06）：
You should not say this.
你不应该这么说。

Pieter Levels (01:07:08):
Pieter Levels（01：07：08）：
Well it’s on the fucking Twitter. It’s on my… It’s open. So, it’s more like a challenge to make a cool new startup that works, but I also still make projects that don’t have any monetization. Airlinelist compared airlines, HoodMaps also, and recently-
在该死的推特上。在我的…门开着所以，这更像是一个挑战，使一个很酷的新启动的工作，但我也仍然使项目，没有任何货币化。航空公司比较了航空公司，HoodMaps也是，最近-

Tiago (01:07:27): 蒂亚戈（01：07：27）：
This is fun because, are you afraid of flying, or not?
这很有趣，因为你害怕飞行吗？

Pieter Levels (01:07:32):
Pieter Levels（01：07：32）：
No, but… Well, I say a little bit. I’m not really super comfortable. I’m more comfortable… I know the odds of-
没有，但是…嗯，我说有一点。我不是很舒服。我更喜欢…我知道几率-

Tiago (01:07:41): 蒂亚戈（01：07：41）：
Crashes. 崩溃。

Pieter Levels (01:07:42):
Pieter Levels（01：07：42）：
… crashes flying is really low, but I’m more comfortable, for my own irrational fear, if I’m in the safest airline with the safest plane.
…坠机的概率很低，但我更舒服，因为我自己的非理性恐惧，如果我在最安全的航空公司和最安全的飞机。

Tiago (01:07:50): 蒂亚戈（01：07：50）：
I was super afraid, actually, now I’m much better. I kind of overcame it. But when I was super afraid, having this filter that you have in your website, like “Safe airlines, no crashes,” would justly make me so much more comfortable.
我很害怕，现在好多了。我克服了它。但是当我超级害怕的时候，在你的网站上有这个过滤器，比如“安全的航空公司，没有坠机”，会让我舒服得多。

Pieter Levels (01:08:05):
Pieter Levels（01：08：05）：
But it’s so irrational, because I drive a motorbike here in Thailand, and it’s like one in 80 or something you die. And then flying the worst airline, I think is Nepal airlines, and it’s like one in 100,000.
但这太不合理了，因为我在泰国开摩托车，死亡率大约是80分之一。乘坐最差的航空公司，我想是尼泊尔航空公司，大概是十万分之一。

Tiago (01:08:16): 蒂亚戈：
Exactly. 没错

Pieter Levels (01:08:17):
Pieter Levels（01：08：17）：
And if I go on a motorbike, I’m not scared at all. So it’s completely irrational, but it’s nice to fly with Singapore airlines, Emirates, Qatar, with Airbus A350. Airbus A380 is great. 777X, honestly it’s not great and it’s still a weird thing.
如果我骑摩托车，我一点也不害怕。所以这是完全不合理的，但乘坐新加坡航空公司、阿联酋航空公司、卡塔尔航空公司的空客A350还是很不错的。空客A380很棒。777X，老实说，它不是很好，它仍然是一个奇怪的东西。

Tiago (01:08:36): 蒂亚戈：
Is that the one with the crashes?
是那个撞车的吗？

Pieter Levels (01:08:36):
Pieter Levels（01：08：36）：
And it’s still, it’s not… The plane doesn’t fly without software. Airbus planes also not, but this whole plane is wrongly designed for eco purposes. It’s just not a good plane. I don’t think anybody should fly on it. Allegedly, I don’t want to get sued.
但它仍然，它不是…没有软件飞机就飞不起来空中客车飞机也没有，但这整个飞机是错误的设计为生态目的。这不是一架好飞机。我不认为任何人都应该乘坐它。阿莱格里，我不想被起诉。

Tiago (01:08:59): 蒂亚戈：
So you build a website to show how to turn this.
所以你建了一个网站来展示如何把它。

Pieter Levels (01:09:03):
Pieter Levels（01：09：03）：
But this website is not monetized. The monetization aspect is more like… I do think more about in the concept of serious companies, like Rebase for example. But I also think about the impact. Now with Rebase, we have Venezuelan families, and Venezuela country is quite in ruins, in terms of the money and society and stuff.
但是这个网站没有货币化。货币化方面更像是…我确实更多地考虑了严肃公司的概念，比如Rebase。但我也想到了影响。现在有了Rebase，我们有了委内瑞拉家庭，委内瑞拉国家在金钱和社会等方面都是一片废墟。

Tiago (01:09:30): 蒂亚戈（01：09：30）：
I had a friend from there and it’s crazy. Told me it was robbed 18 times at gunpoint.
我有一个朋友从那里，这是疯狂的。告诉我它被持枪抢劫了18次。

Pieter Levels (01:09:36):
Pieter Levels（01：09：36）：
It’s insane. 太疯狂了

Tiago (01:09:37): 蒂亚戈（01：09：37）：
How is it possible? It’s absurd.
这怎么可能呢？太荒谬了

Pieter Levels (01:09:40):
Pieter Levels（01：09：40）：
So it feels nice to be able to move people out of there, help them. And that, I think, I’m the most proud of in the last year or something. This product is… I don’t know. It sounds so cliche. It sounds [inaudible 01:09:55].
所以能帮助人们离开那里感觉很好。我想，这是我去年最自豪的事情。该产品是…我不知道听起来太老套了。听不清的声音

Tiago (01:09:56): 蒂亚戈：
But not cliche. It might be cliche, but it’s really important.
但不是陈词滥调。可能有点老套，但这真的很重要。

Pieter Levels (01:09:59):
Pieter Levels（01：09：59）：
It feels really cool to… It’s not about money anymore for me, but it feels really cool that this is a website that I made, a PHP script, index.php, is saving people from Venezuela. [inaudible 01:10:12]
感觉真的很酷…这对我来说不再是钱的问题了，但这感觉真的很酷，这是我做的一个网站，一个PHP脚本，index.php，正在从委内瑞拉拯救人们。【听不见的声音】

Tiago (01:10:12): 蒂亚戈（01：10：12）：
That’s amazing. That’s the beauty of tech, I would say. I totally agree.
太棒了这就是技术的美丽，我会说。我完全同意。

Pieter Levels (01:10:16):
Pieter Levels（01：10：16）：
Because you could do so many bad things with tech, look at Facebook, all this data stuff, but you can also do really good things. And you can do it alone, solo on your laptop from the bed, that’s what I do, and with coffee and I’m still doing it after eight years and you can change people’s lives and you can leave the world better than you found it. And that’s also my mission.
因为你可以用科技做很多坏事，看看Facebook，所有这些数据，但你也可以做真正的好事。你可以一个人做，躺在床上，一个人用笔记本电脑，这就是我所做的，喝着咖啡，八年后我仍然在做这件事，你可以改变人们的生活，你可以让这个世界比你发现的更好。这也是我的使命。

Tiago (01:10:39): 蒂亚戈（01：10：39）：
Is that your mission? Is it like your purpose somehow? Life purpose.
这就是你的使命吗这是你的目的吗人生目标

Pieter Levels (01:10:45):
Pieter Levels（01：10：45）：
It sounds, again, so cliche. I’m also not perfect. I also make mistakes and I also… You can get rich, but then you die. You cannot bring your money into death. So it’s all doesn’t really make… It’s not useful. Legacy is also not that useful, but… I don’t know. It’s a nice purpose to have, to leave the world better than you found it, and that’s my role as a human.
这听起来，再一次，太老套了。我也不完美。我也会犯错，我也…你可以变得富有，但你会死。你不能把你的钱带到死亡。所以这一切并不意味着…没用的遗产也不是那么有用，但是…我不知道这是一个很好的目标，让世界比你发现的更好，这就是我作为人类的角色。

Tiago (01:11:04): 蒂亚戈（01：11：04）：
I totally agree with you. And it’s the same. I wrote something similar in Indie Hackers recently, because that’s also my purpose. Are you religious?
我完全同意你的看法。都是一样的我最近在Indie Hackers上写了类似的东西，因为这也是我的目的。你信教吗？

Pieter Levels (01:11:14):
Pieter Levels（01：11：14）：
No, I guess I’m agnostic. My family’s like… Well, we’re not practicing, but we grew up Roman Catholic. Weirdly, I keep meeting a lot of Roman Catholic people, even in Asia, the people… The girlfriends I had were Roman Catholic, but not on purpose and the friends I have, a lot of them are Roman Catholic. And man, Roman Catholic is a minority in Christianity, most are Protestant, also in my country. So, it’s something with Roman Catholic.
不，我想我是不可知论者。我的家人就像…嗯，我们不练习，但我们长大的罗马天主教徒。奇怪的是，我一直遇到很多罗马天主教的人，甚至在亚洲，人们…我的女朋友是罗马天主教徒，但不是故意的，我的朋友，他们中的很多人都是罗马天主教徒。而且，罗马天主教在基督教中是少数，大多数是新教，在我的国家也是如此。所以，这是罗马天主教的东西。

Tiago (01:11:42): 蒂亚戈（01：11：42）：
Is Portugal Roman Catholic? Do you know this?
葡萄牙是罗马天主教吗？你知道这个吗？

Pieter Levels (01:11:45):
Pieter Levels（01：11：45）：
I think so. 我想是的

Tiago (01:11:45): 蒂亚戈（01：11：45）：
I think it is, right?
我想是吧？

Pieter Levels (01:11:47):
Pieter Levels（01：11：47）：
I think UK is Protestant, tolerance Protestant, but we were Roman Catholic. But I’m agnostic, I don’t know what there is after death. I probably believe in that… Because I did mushrooms, and also the things you learn that everybody’s connected and that maybe we’re all one person and one consciousness. And I think that’s probably true or something.
我认为英国是新教，宽容新教，但我们是罗马天主教徒。但我是不可知论者，我不知道死后会有什么。我可能相信…因为我做了蘑菇，还有你学到的东西，每个人都是联系在一起的，也许我们都是一个人，一个意识。我觉得这可能是真的。

Tiago (01:12:14): 蒂亚戈（01：12：14）：
Wait, but now I didn’t understand. You did mushrooms and you came up with this?
等等，但现在我不明白了。你做了蘑菇然后就想到了这个？

Pieter Levels (01:12:21):
Pieter Levels（01：12：21）：
The feelings you have when you do… The feelings of connectedness, but I do feel the feelings of connectedness anyway, so I really need drugs to open up so much, but… I don’t know. We’re all probably the same person, the same consciousness. It’s sounds logical to me.
你做的时候的感觉…连通的感觉，但我确实感觉到连通的感觉，所以我真的需要药物打开这么多，但.我不知道我们可能都是同一个人，同一个意识。我觉得很合理。

Tiago (01:12:39): 蒂亚戈（01：12：39）：
It’s a very interesting video about from Kurzgesagt. I don’t know if you watch it on YouTube. And they have a video just about this theory, that in the end we are all the same person. It’s a very interesting theory. I’ve never…
这是一个非常有趣的视频从Kurzgesagt。我不知道你是否在YouTube上看过。他们有一个关于这个理论的视频，最终我们都是同一个人。这是个很有趣的理论我从来没有…

Pieter Levels (01:12:51):
Pieter Levels（01：12：51）：
Maybe- 或许-

Tiago (01:12:51): 蒂亚戈（01：12：51）：
… think about it. …想想吧

Pieter Levels (01:12:53):
Pieter Levels（01：12：53）：
Maybe we’re all one person and that’s God. And then, you also get to simulation theory or multidimensionalism, where-
也许我们都是一个人，那就是上帝。然后，你也会接触到模拟理论或多维理论，在那里-

Tiago (01:13:00): 蒂亚戈（01：13：00）：
I hate those. I don’t want to speak about that. Freaks me out.
我讨厌那些。我不想谈这个。吓到我了。

Pieter Levels (01:13:03):
Pieter Levels（01：13：03）：
Where there’s infinite dimensions with different realities. Man, and if you start thinking about it, it feels kind of lonely. You’re like, “I’m in my own dimensions stuck now.”
在那里有无限的维度和不同的现实。伙计，如果你开始想它，感觉有点孤独。你就像是，“我被困在我自己的次元里了。”

Tiago (01:13:13): 蒂亚戈（01：13：13）：
You know Rick and Morty, on Netflix?
你知道网飞上的《瑞克和莫蒂》吗

Pieter Levels (01:13:17):
Pieter Levels（01：13：17）：
Yeah. 是啊

Tiago (01:13:18): 蒂亚戈（01：13：18）：
It’s amazing. They explore exactly this. Everything becomes pointless because there’s infinite use.
太神奇了他们正是在探索这一点。一切都变得毫无意义，因为有无限的用途。

Pieter Levels (01:13:25):
Pieter Levels（01：13：25）：
Exactly. 没错

Tiago (01:13:26): 蒂亚戈（01：13：26）：
So you are agnostic, and you think that maybe there are some things, maybe there isn’t. The reason why I ask is, again, I also very similar grown Catholic family. They don’t practice that much.
所以你是不可知论者，你认为也许有一些东西，也许没有。我问这个问题的原因是，我也是一个非常相似的天主教家庭。他们不怎么练习。

Pieter Levels (01:13:39):
Pieter Levels（01：13：39）：
Interesting, 有意思，

Tiago (01:13:39): 蒂亚戈（01：13：39）：
But I slowly lost my connections with religion. And I think that unfortunately there’s nothing after, well I’m also agnostic, but I don’t know… But that just gives me more purpose of actually doing something that goes beyond having money. Actually doing a little contribution to the world is something that really motivates me. And it’s not cliche, actually. I think it’s a great mission for life.
但我慢慢地失去了与宗教的联系。我认为不幸的是，之后什么也没有，我也是不可知论者，但我不知道.但这只是给了我更多的目标，让我真正做一些超越金钱的事情。事实上，为世界做点贡献是一件真正激励我的事情。事实上，这并不是陈词滥调。我认为这是一个伟大的人生使命。

Pieter Levels (01:14:12):
Pieter Levels（01：14：12）：
I mean a lot of cliches are just true, I guess, because they’re simple, but you need to do something with this life. You could sit in your room and do nothing.
我的意思是，很多陈词滥调都是真的，我想，因为它们很简单，但你需要为这种生活做点什么。你可以坐在房间里什么也不做。

Tiago (01:14:21): 蒂亚戈（01：14：21）：
Why do you need to?
你为什么要这么做

Pieter Levels (01:14:25):
Pieter Levels（01：14：25）：
It’s all meaningless if you start thinking in that way, but I get happy from being active, doing stuff. Also I go to the gym, for example, that makes me happy. I see friends. I like to be in a flow state where I work on things that makes me happy, but everything is the same value. Everything is, everything is valueless in a way, but maybe in a good way, it’s all the same, money doesn’t exist. You know what I mean? There’s no better and worse, it’s all nothing. Because entropy will destroy everything in a billion years and the sun will explode. So, nothing matters and everything you build up goes away. Every relationship you have is not permanent. Everything dies.
如果你开始那样想，那一切都毫无意义，但我从积极主动中得到快乐，做事情。我也去健身房，例如，这让我很高兴。我看到了朋友。我喜欢处于一种流动的状态，在这种状态下，我做的事情让我快乐，但一切都是一样的价值。一切都是，一切都是毫无价值的方式，但也许在一个好的方式，这都是一样的，金钱并不存在。你懂我的意思吗？没有更好和更坏，一切都是虚无。因为熵会在十亿年内毁灭一切，太阳会爆炸。所以，什么都不重要，你建立的一切都会消失。你拥有的每一段关系都不是永久的。万物皆死。

Tiago (01:15:19): 蒂亚戈（01：15：19）：
We are getting super dark.
我们变得超级黑暗。

Pieter Levels (01:15:21):
Pieter Levels（01：15：21）：
No, but it’s also really not dark, because that shows impermanence, and impermanence, if you accept that, it’s quite beautiful and you shouldn’t fight it, you should just embrace it and that’s reality. And that’s also, I guess why people start living in a moment, because they realize impermanence. Eckhart Tolle is like Power of Now, that’s it just power of now. History doesn’t exist, future doesn’t exist, just now, you’re here. You’re here now. I think, Ramdas the Buddhist or the Yogi, in India says that, “Be here now,” that’s it. Power of now, be here now.
不，但它也不是黑暗的，因为它显示了无常，而无常，如果你接受它，它是相当美丽的，你不应该与它抗争，你应该拥抱它，这就是现实。我想这也是为什么人们开始活在当下，因为他们意识到了无常。埃克哈特·托尔就像是现在的力量，就是现在的力量。历史不存在，未来不存在，只是现在，你在这里。你来了我想，印度的佛教徒或瑜伽士拉姆达斯说，“现在就在这里”，就是这样。现在的力量，现在就在这里。

Tiago (01:16:05): 蒂亚戈（01：16：05）：
Do you think that this is the mentality that also helps you succeed, because allows you to think outside of the box and say, “Okay, let’s move to Portugal, because I’m doing it now or let’s go-”
你认为这种心态也能帮助你成功吗？因为它能让你跳出框框，说：“好吧，我们去葡萄牙吧，因为我现在就在做，或者我们去–”

Pieter Levels (01:16:14):
Pieter Levels（01：16：14）：
I think in a way because if you cling to permanence and to things and to people, you cling to everything, you try to hold everything tight, so you don’t lose it, you’re scared of loss, fear of loss. And that’s really an unhealthy thing because it’s trying to give you certainty. Cling to people, cling to things, cling to buying a house, cling to all this. And it’s essentially, probably your fear of death, I think, which we all have, is normal, but it’s fighting impermanence. I’m going to collect all this stuff and hoard it because then I can keep it permanently, forever. So, moving to another place, you’re a nomad, you learn a lot about impermanence because you cannot carry a lot of stuff. You have a backpack, you cannot buy a lot of stuff.
我认为在某种程度上是因为如果你执着于永恒、事物和人，你执着于一切，你试图紧紧抓住一切，这样你就不会失去它，你害怕失去，害怕失去。这真的是一件不健康的事情，因为它试图给你给予确定性。执着于人，执着于物，执着于买房，执着于这一切。我想，这本质上可能是你对死亡的恐惧，我们都有，这是正常的，但它是在与无常作斗争。我要把这些东西都收集起来藏起来，这样我就可以永久地保存它们。所以，搬到另一个地方，你是一个流浪者，你学到很多关于无常的知识，因为你不能携带很多东西。你有一个背包，你不能买很多东西。

Tiago (01:17:07): 蒂亚戈（01：17：07）：
You understand what it’s really important, this minimalist approach, right?
你知道什么是真正重要的，这种极简主义的方法，对不对？

Pieter Levels (01:17:13):
Pieter Levels（01：17：13）：
And impermanence just like that. And it gives you more flexibility to change up your life, I guess. And I also think it gives you more healthy approach to relationships, because a lot of people are stuck in relationships or marriages which don’t work anymore. And if you believe in abundance and impermanence and you’re okay, you accept like, “Okay, this relationship doesn’t work anymore.” It’s fine. It’s healthy to end this.
无常，就像这样。我想，这给了你更多的灵活性来改变你的生活。我也认为这会给你更健康的人际关系，因为很多人陷入了不再有效的人际关系或婚姻中。如果你相信富足和无常，你没事，你接受了，“好吧，这种关系不再起作用了。“这倒也罢了。结束这一切是健康的。

Tiago (01:17:38): 蒂亚戈（01：17：38）：
Think people are also very afraid to leave their comfort zone.
人们也很害怕离开自己的舒适区。

Pieter Levels (01:17:42):
Pieter Levels（01：17：42）：
That’s the whole thing. 就是这样

Tiago (01:17:43): 蒂亚戈（01：17：43）：
Because you don’t know what’s in the other side. You leave your wife and maybe you find another wife that is better-
因为你不知道另一边是什么。你离开你的妻子也许你会找到另一个更好的妻子-

Pieter Levels (01:17:51):
Pieter Levels（01：17：51）：
Or husband. 或者丈夫。

Tiago (01:17:51): 蒂亚戈（01：17：51）：
Or husband. Or you just can be lonely forever.
或者丈夫。或者你会永远孤独。

Pieter Levels (01:17:57):
Pieter Levels（01：17：57）：
I think a lot of men and women, after divorce, at 60, or 70, or 50 even, they also go nomad, you meet them and they have a very healthy mindset about this stuff. Just like we just talked about, this kind of impermanent mindset. And I’m not saying you… Of course, you should be in relationship as long as you can, of course. But the fear of loss is not a good thing.
我想很多男人和女人，离婚后，在60岁，或70岁，甚至50岁，他们也去流浪，你遇到他们，他们对这件事有一个非常健康的心态。就像我们刚才讲的这种无常的心态。我不是说你…当然，你应该尽可能长时间地保持关系。但害怕失去并不是一件好事。

Tiago (01:18:23): 蒂亚戈（01：18：23）：
Definitely. We are running out of time here, and I think we could definitely speak about this for a long time and I think it’s really interesting. I love to get more philosophical.
绝对的我们的时间不多了，我想我们肯定可以谈论这个很长一段时间，我认为这真的很有趣。我喜欢变得更有哲理。

Pieter Levels (01:18:33):
Pieter Levels（01：18：33）：
Next time we can do three hours.
下次我们可以做三个小时。

Tiago (01:18:34): 蒂亚戈（01：18：34）：
Yes, we can do this-
是的，我们能做到-

Pieter Levels (01:18:36):
Pieter Levels（01：18：36）：
Like Joe Rogan. 就像乔·罗根。

Tiago (01:18:36): 蒂亚戈（01：18：36）：
Exactly. Joe Rogan. 没错乔·罗根

Pieter Levels (01:18:38):
Pieter Levels（01：18：38）：
It’s perfect. 太完美了

Tiago (01:18:39): 蒂亚戈（01：18：39）：
Think about everything, but I think there’s a lot of things. We got to learn more about your mindset, your philosophy. You gave some cool lessons for aspiring entrepreneurs, as well. We end up not speaking that much about the effect of Rebase in Portugal, which is something that is really interesting. So we could speak about this maybe in another session. As the last question. What are the technologies or markets that you’re most excited about?
我什么都想，但我想有很多事。我们得多了解你的思想，你的哲学。你也给有抱负的企业家上了一些很酷的课。我们最终没有谈论太多关于Rebase在葡萄牙的影响，这是非常有趣的事情。所以我们可以在另一个会议上讨论这个问题。作为最后一个问题。您最感兴趣的技术或市场是什么？

Pieter Levels (01:19:04):
Pieter Levels（01：19：04）：
I’d say, I don’t think the whole decentralized stuff is interesting, like crypto. Actually, I think most of it is, but I think there’s definitely fundamental concepts that really will be the future. Decentralized concepts seem… Like censorship resistance stuff. Look at social media posts being deleted everywhere and censored. Look at people’s accounts being frozen and look at the overreaching arm of countries like United States that just they want to remove Russia from international banking via SWIFT and stuff. This is all not good and it shouldn’t be power like that existing. And I think people… Again, autonomy, autonomy is really big trend, I think. And it also has to do with decentralization. So, I think definitely will be interesting. I really think the technology is absolutely not there yet. Bitcoin is great, it works really well, but the smart contracts are way too slow, too expensive and stuff, but it is very interesting technology and it will definitely only improve, I think. And there might be some bubbles and some bursts, but in five, 10 years, I think a lot of stuff will be decentralized.
我会说，我不认为整个去中心化的东西是有趣的，像加密。事实上，我认为大部分都是，但我认为肯定有一些基本的概念，真的会成为未来。分散的概念似乎…就像抵制审查之类的。看看社交媒体上到处都在删除和审查的帖子。看看人们的账户被冻结，看看像美国这样的国家的过度扩张，他们只是想通过SWIFT等方式将俄罗斯从国际银行业中移除。这一切都不好，它不应该是这样的权力存在。我认为人们…再次强调，我认为自主性是一个大趋势。这也与权力下放有关。所以，我想肯定会很有趣。我真的认为这项技术还没有出现。 比特币很棒，它运行得很好，但智能合约太慢，太贵了，但它是一项非常有趣的技术，我认为它肯定会改进。可能会有一些泡沫和一些破裂，但在五年，十年内，我认为很多东西都会去中心化。

Tiago (01:20:16): 蒂亚戈（01：20：16）：
I’m also super excited to see what is going to come up from there. Pieter, thank you so much for taking the time. I will link Rebase and I guess your Twitter profile in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. It was really nice.
我也非常兴奋地想看看从那里会发生什么。彼得，谢谢你抽出时间。我将链接Rebase，我猜你的Twitter个人资料在显示笔记。非常感谢你的时间。真的很棒

Pieter Levels (01:20:33):
Pieter Levels（01：20：33）：
Thanks for having me and see you next time for the three hour episode.
谢谢你邀请我，下次三小时的节目再见。

Tiago (01:20:34): 蒂亚戈（01：20：34）：
Yes. You heard him. There will be a next interview to go deeper into this philosophical and bootstrapping topics. If you are new to Wannabe Entrepreneur, this is the podcast about bootstrapping a company. I narrate my own journey and interview other entrepreneurs from all walks of life, all levels of scale about their own journeys. And I’ve been learning a lot and I’m sure that you will too. So make sure to go to wannabe-entrepreneur.com and check out all the other interviews and episodes I have for you.
是的你听到他说的了我们将在下一次采访中深入探讨这个哲学和自助的话题。如果你是新的Wannabe企业家，这是关于引导公司的播客。我讲述了自己的旅程，并采访了来自各行各业的其他企业家，各种规模的企业家。我学到了很多，我相信你也会的。所以一定要去wannabe-entrepreneur.com看看我为你准备的所有其他采访和剧集。

Tiago (01:21:07): 蒂亚戈（01：21：07）：
I don’t do any advertisement. So if you want to support this podcast and you want it to continue, you can buy me a coffee, the link will be in the description. Or you can join our virtual coworking space for bootstrapers, a place where we basically hang out. We are all entrepreneur friends, like-minded people and we help each other build our own projects. So, I would love to see you there. It has a cost of four euros or $4.60 per month. Besides that, giving a great review, sharing this with your friends, it would really take this podcast a long way. This was another Wannabe Entrepreneur. See you next time.
我不做任何广告。所以如果你想支持这个播客，并希望它继续下去，你可以给我买一杯咖啡，链接将在描述中。或者你可以加入我们的虚拟合作空间，这是一个我们基本上可以闲逛的地方。我们都是企业家朋友，志同道合的人，我们互相帮助建立自己的项目。所以，我很乐意在那里见到你。它的费用是每月4欧元或4.60美元。除此之外，给一个很好的评论，与你的朋友分享，这真的会花这个播客很长的路要走。这又是一个创业者。下次再见

P.S. I’m on Twitter too if you’d like to follow more of my stories. And I wrote a book called MAKE about building startups without funding. See a list of my stories or contact me. To get an alert when I write a new blog post, you can subscribe below:
P.S.我也在Twitter上，如果你想关注我的更多故事。我写了一本书叫MAKE，是关于在没有资金的情况下建立初创公司的。查看我的故事列表或联系我。要在我写新博客文章时获得提醒，您可以在下面订阅：